With all of the new security procedures we keep hearing about, it's important for the government to keep convincing us that we're under a very real immediate threat that could put us at risk at any moment. Along those lines, you may have heard over the weekend about how the FBI supposedly stopped a terrorism bomb plot in Portland, Oregon. Except it appears more and more people are scratching beneath the surface and realizing that the entire plot appears to have been cooked up by the FBI itself. Yes, it sounds like they found a dumb kid who was willing to carry out a bombing. But there doesn't appear to be any evidence that he actually had any ability to actually do so... until the FBI came along and provided him with all the details.
Of course, this is hardly new. There appears to have been a very similar story just a month ago, involving a guy in DC who wanted to bomb Metro stations, but the only actual plotting he was able to do was after federal authorities stepped in and helped him plan everything.
Even that is hardly new. I remember a fascinating episode of This American Life back from the summer of 2009 describing (in great detail) a very similar story of a supposed "arms dealer" that the Justice Department championed as a success story when it arrested and prosecuted him for selling missiles to terrorists. The only problem is that the deeper you dig, the more you realize that the whole plot was also set up by the feds. The guy had no way to get a missile. It was actually provided by the feds themselves.
As that report notes, this is how the government has acted since 9/11. It basically creates its own terrorist plots, and then searches for willing participants... and then arrests them, and hypes how it prevented a terrorist attack, even if there's absolutely no indication that anyone involved would have actually been able to carry out any sort of attack (or arms deal) without the aid of the US government.
We've talked about "security theater," but this appears to be law enforcement theater, complete with actors and props. Feel safer yet?
Original
FBI Celebrates That It Prevented FBI's Own Bomb Plot
Yes? And?
Federal authorities were informed in the early planning stages of both plots and made efforts to stop them. At the point that authorities came onto the scene, there was little to nothing to charge the person(s) with. If authorities had simply done nothing, the people involved would have continued to search for co-conspirators and these two incidents would have turned very ugly.
All the FBI did in these two cases was allow the people involved dig their own graves. They were given multiple opportunities to back out and insisted on carrying on with the plots. I have no sympathy.
Federal authorities were informed in the early planning stages of both plots and made efforts to stop them. At the point that authorities came onto the scene, there was little to nothing to charge the person(s) with. If authorities had simply done nothing, the people involved would have continued to search for co-conspirators and these two incidents would have turned very ugly.
All the FBI did in these two cases was allow the people involved dig their own graves. They were given multiple opportunities to back out and insisted on carrying on with the plots. I have no sympathy.
Quote:Original post by FlashInThePan
Feel safer yet?
I've always felt safe, but knowing how much hard work the FBI is doing to find and expose these people is amazing. That's a lot of detective work.
Though I do kind of sympathize with your viewpoint. I mean without the FBI's help he might not have ever been able to "pull off" anything. It's scary though realizing how sick some people are. I think it's better to stop them though early on and not just see where things are going to go by themselves.
It seems comparable to cops dressing up as prostitutes, except that in this case they're actually doing something important. They obviously never gave him the ability to actually set off a bomb, just the means to prove that he would.
The same tactics are used for catching pretty much any criminal. If people deal cocaine, then they get caught dealing with the feds, if they evade taxes, they get caught transferring money into a government account, and if they build bombs then thank God they get caught buying the goods from the police.
The same tactics are used for catching pretty much any criminal. If people deal cocaine, then they get caught dealing with the feds, if they evade taxes, they get caught transferring money into a government account, and if they build bombs then thank God they get caught buying the goods from the police.
Quote:Original post by Erik Rufelt
It seems comparable to cops dressing up as prostitutes, except that in this case they're actually doing something important. They obviously never gave him the ability to actually set off a bomb, just the means to prove that he would.
The same tactics are used for catching pretty much any criminal. If people deal cocaine, then they get caught dealing with the feds, if they evade taxes, they get caught transferring money into a government account, and if they build bombs then thank God they get caught buying the goods from the police.
^^^This
It isn't like the FBI posted ads offering to help anyone willing to build a bomb and kill innocent people. The people involved already had a plan and needed help. They went to the "wrong" person that then turned them over to the FBI. After that, it became a sting operation. The issue is that in order to prosecute someone in the US, the prosecutor needs to show intent. It isn't enough that he expresses interest in killing Americans as such a statement is protected speech. The agents gave them the ability to go a step beyond simple speech as well as the ability to back out.
The law doesn't allow the police to arrest someone for wanting to kill people, only for doing it, attempting to do it or conspiring to do it. I for one don't want them to wait for people like that to kill someone.
Did they dangle a "bomb" in front of his nose? Sure, but If under-cover police offered me a bomb I wouldn't say "thanks", I'd call the police; this guy didn't. When handed the mobile phone which he believed would detonate the bomb he dialed the number.
Did they dangle a "bomb" in front of his nose? Sure, but If under-cover police offered me a bomb I wouldn't say "thanks", I'd call the police; this guy didn't. When handed the mobile phone which he believed would detonate the bomb he dialed the number.
Quote:Original post by ObscureWhen handed the mobile phone which he believed would detonate the bomb he dialed the number.
Twice, I should add!
An important premise for the security and fear policies implemented in the west, in the last 10 years, is fear of terrorist attacks. Unfortunately for these policy makers (but fortunate for the citizens), the real risk to the public is negliable, because most terror happens in the "3rd world" and because there simply aren't any domestic terrorists capable of pulling off spectacular attacks.
So without fearmongering and stories like that in oregon, the policies will eventually fail and backlash. A flour letter or a gasoline tank doesn't quite cut it, so the logic of political nessecity makes the police, military and intelligence do some crazy shit. The politicians probably don't know, and the agencies are really only trying to do good. It's fear and manipulation of a higher order that makes the people in charge act this way, not malice on their part (I'd like to think so).
Going to some crazy guy who wants to blow up civilians, but doesn't and would never have the means to do it, and giving him a bomb and means to execute plan is crazy.
It's not like an undercover hooker or drug bust. This is taking advantage of sick people, gambling with civilian lives, corrupting the legal system, and not doing anything to prevent (real) terror. This path will take us from democracy straight into fascism. Then again maybe that's what's needed to restore actual democracy, that enough people wake up to see what's going on.
So without fearmongering and stories like that in oregon, the policies will eventually fail and backlash. A flour letter or a gasoline tank doesn't quite cut it, so the logic of political nessecity makes the police, military and intelligence do some crazy shit. The politicians probably don't know, and the agencies are really only trying to do good. It's fear and manipulation of a higher order that makes the people in charge act this way, not malice on their part (I'd like to think so).
Going to some crazy guy who wants to blow up civilians, but doesn't and would never have the means to do it, and giving him a bomb and means to execute plan is crazy.
It's not like an undercover hooker or drug bust. This is taking advantage of sick people, gambling with civilian lives, corrupting the legal system, and not doing anything to prevent (real) terror. This path will take us from democracy straight into fascism. Then again maybe that's what's needed to restore actual democracy, that enough people wake up to see what's going on.
Well basically someone is saying "Man I wish I had a bomb and could kill a ton of people." The FBI simply exposed that that's all. There are plenty of people that would do it if they could. Just because these people are morons and can't do it for themselves, doesn't mean they wont find something in the future.
Things don't just happen overnight though, a person could be planning a big plot for a while, just because they haven't done it yet or don't have enough resources, doesn't mean its not a threat. There have got to be tons of others just like these.
Things don't just happen overnight though, a person could be planning a big plot for a while, just because they haven't done it yet or don't have enough resources, doesn't mean its not a threat. There have got to be tons of others just like these.
Quote:Original post by Don Carnage
It's not like an undercover hooker or drug bust. This is taking advantage of sick people, gambling with civilian lives, corrupting the legal system, and not doing anything to prevent (real) terror.
If you read the article linked from the OP you'll see that they never gave him the opportunity to actually detonate a bomb.
Quote:On Tuesday, according to the affidavit, Mr. Mohamud and the undercover agents met again for final preparations, loading what seemed like parts of a bomb into a vehicle, planning details of the operation.
The suspect was also actively seeking terrorist training long before the FBI got involved, and had contact to foreign terrorists. The article also explains how the undercover agents gave him several opportunities to back out or help his cause through other means, while the guy insisted on carrying out an attack.
Quote:The agent asked: “You know there’s gonna be a lot of children there?”
Mr. Mohamud replied: “Yeah, I mean that’s what I’m looking for.”
Someone so determined to kill people will find a way, unless stopped.
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