Interview with Ernest Adams on equality and diversity in the games industry

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50 comments, last by PropheticEdge 13 years, 1 month ago

So that's a normal thing in white society? To place stereotypes on asians as being good at or knowing Karate? What other stereotypes do you find get alot of voice within white inner circles?

There are many ethnic stereo-types that are commonly held by society, despite their lack of agreement with reality - 'white guys can't dance', 'asians are good at math', etc. But just because stereotypes don't hold true across the board, doesn't mean that their isn't some statistical bias supporting them.

Not really. I've never heard of anyone (besides what I've just read on these forums) say that people were naturally good at karate simply because they were asian.[/quote]
Again, this is statistical bias: given that the most commonly practiced martial arts originate in the far east, it is not unreasonable to assume that a higher than average percentage of far easterners possess this training.

Nobody said asians are inherently *better* at karate. Merely than a high percentage of those who practice karate happen to be asian - correlation is not causation.

Tristam MacDonald. Ex-BigTech Software Engineer. Future farmer. [https://trist.am]

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There are many ethnic stereo-types that are commonly held by society, despite their lack of agreement with reality - 'white guys can't dance', 'asians are good at math', etc.[/quote]

What the hell? You're nothing but a racist. So white dudes really can dance (negative to positive stereotype) but asians aren't really good at math (positive to negative)?

No kidding... look at who dominates MMA![/quote]

White guys fighting other white guys....yup.

White guys fighting other white guys....yup.


I take it you don't watch much MMA.

Not really. I've never heard of anyone (besides what I've just read on these forums) say that people were naturally good at karate simply because they were asian.


Well, Karate is a regional martial art specific to Japan. Ethnicities are tied to a region. Martial arts exist in virtually every part of the world, because at some point some culture is going to have people who systematically want to beat the shit out of other people. East-Asian martial arts are well known, and certainly spring to mind whenever people use the term "martial arts", but they are certainly not the sum of martial arts. The English have Single Stick, the ancient Greeks have boxing, the French have Savate, so on and so forth.

A person who is naturally strong, agile, has good stamina and is a good fighter will be naturally good at Karate, if they learn Karate. "If they learn Karate" is an important point there, since Karate refers to a specific set of martial arts. One that comes from Japan, and was developed by the Japanese. Hence, at some point, someone who knows Karate is connected to the Japanese through some Kevin Bacon-esque chain of relations. How long that chain extends depends on the context of the situation. And whether or not it makes sense for a person to know Karate will also depend on the situation.

So let's say I was making a game about feudal Japan and I see a samurai guy throw a jab-jab-cross-hook combination at a guy. My brain's going to melt down and scream "WHAT" because I have just witnessed an astounding anachronism. Japanese samurai in feudal Japan tended to use Karate last I checked, you know, given their incredibly isolated island country. So it totally makes sense for a Japanese guy in this context to be "naturally good at Karate", because that's what he would have known if he was a trained fighter.

Flash forward to Meiji Era Japan when it starts to receive western influence. Same thing happens, fight breaks out a dockside bar and a ronin Samurai lets out a jab-jab-cross-hook combination. I would think that's pretty odd, once again, but then his British friend comes up and you learn that this guy learned boxing from the English while working on a trade ship to make end's meet, then went on to be a semi-successful prize fighter. Ok, that makes sense now and could be an interesting plot hook.

In modern era, if I saw a dude in Japan use Karate I would not be surprised, as that is still a culturally significant and pervasive martial art over there. If you pulled me aside and asked, "Hey, here's this random fighter from Japan. What style do you think he uses?" I'd probably say, "Judo, Karate, or Kendo". This really has nothing to do with the color of his skin, but the culture he grew up in. If you grabbed a random white guy who was raised in Japan, or learned to fight in Japan and asked the same question, I'd give the same answer. It's a matter of what influences a person was likely exposed to based on their environment.

However, say I had a setting more like Mass Effect and there was an Asian guy who started busting out some Karate on people I'd have different expectations. In a far future, post-country, united humanity sort of world, I very much doubt there would be a bias for an Asian guy knowing Karate over anyone else, unless he learned it specifically to connect with his ancient heritage. I still wouldn't start pointing fingers and calling racism, however, that's simply absurd.

Anyway, I read the article.

It's a mixed bag. I disagree with his tone in many parts, it rings too loudly of big bad white men doing big bad things, but he does touch on some good points.

On disability accessibility, I think a company should make a reasonable effort, within their means, of adding accessibility options. Closed captioning, color blind interfaces and re-mappable controls spring to mind the most. However, I expect reasonable efforts not herculean efforts. This stems from my belief that it is morally right, if you produce a product, to maximize the number people that can enjoy it if doing so is at little/no further expense to yourself. Like, if I made a game and sold one copy for $1,000,000,000 (it's a really good game, guys!), but could have sold 100,000 copies and netted $1,000,000,000, I believe I would have done something immoral.

I agree with some previously said statement that games can be a commodity, a good developed to make money. They can also be made as works of passion, or toys, or made as peices of art. Games are a highly flexible genre that are not easy to pin down. Comparing an indie game to a AAA title can be a bit like apples and oranges, as they often are created to achieve different experiences.

I very strongly believe in artistic freedom for media. If you want to tell a specific story about specific characters in a specific way, then go for it. If you want to make a game with scantily clad, buxom women and men with bulging muscles because you're getting all misty eyed over Frank Frazetta, be my guest. I don't think what you're doing is "disgusting" or shameful. If you're telling a specific story, and you want a gay, minority, specific gender, whatever to be a main character or part of it that's great. However, if you're throwing in a minority character to be "edgy" or to "not be racist", I think that's morally wrong and should not be done. In my mind, that is exploitative and bigoted. While I found Faith an exceedingly annoying character from a design perspective, having an Asian protagonist was just like having any other protagonist. I don't think it is particularly praise worthy, however, or that having a white protagonist would have been any better/worse. Her ethnic background was not a plot point in the game, or a defining aspect of the character, so it really doesn't ping on the radar as being a noteworthy aspect of her design. It's like if she were to be wearing green shoes instead of read, simply a visual difference. Had she been swapped for a white character, the setting, moral lessons, themes and character interactions would have been completely unchanged.

In a free-form game that is meant to immerse the player into their character and make them feel the identity of a character, then coding in such things as homosexual actions does make perfect sense. I won't besmirch a developer for not doing it, however, given the potential development costs required in doing so. I do not consider to to be a moral obligation to enhance the immersion and identity a player feels with the game, but rather simply a design decision. The point he made about games allowing male characters to wear female clothing, and vice versa, was an interesting one and something I hadn't really considered before. Nor was giving the option for players to tailor content to only allow advances from a particular gender, but I'm not so sure how I feel about that.

On diversifying the workforce, I think people should be hired if they can do the job. If HR determines that having an individual possessing perspective on a target demographic is valuable, then that's certainly a part of their job and should factor into their evaluation as a potential employee. However, I would disagree strongly with hiring a woman over a man just because she's a woman. I think that is a disservice to both individuals. I also think it's a bit silly to rigidly labor under the delusion that only women can identify with women or target them as an audience. Being of a culture does not imply deep, meaningful connection with it, nor does being not of that culture imply ignorance of it. I also believe that an employee who is a good cultural fit is a stronger candidate, but this should be a matter of personality, philosophy, behavior and habit not race, gender, sexual identity or sexual orientation.


Gears of War (Overused example, i know.)
Team Fortress 2 (The heavy class.)
Unreal Tournament (I think they had something similar to TF2's heavy.)
Street Fighter (Rufus, the sumo guy)
BlazBlue (Iron Tager, Arakune)


First off, Arakune's not even recognizably human so I'm not sure what he's doing on that list. He has a male, human voice I suppose, but his body is a gross blob thing.

This list plucks at the strings of something far, far more subtle happening, and something that is missed in debates about sexism. What is valued as positive traits varies between the sexes, and this is not often taken into account when making comparisons.

This is speaking from the perspective of American social trends.

For men, strength, status and power are seen as positive, or attractive traits. Physical beauty/handsomeness is, for many men, secondary. Damn near any male protagonist character is going to be handsome, pretty, or strong. If not, they're almost universally a comic relief character or a gag character. A man who is ugly, but a hardened warrior or powerful politician, will still garner admiration and respect. People forget that the dumpy, balding, incompetent male is just as much a stereotype as the ditzy bimbo, but society by and large does not care if males are stereotyped or made fun of.

The Heavy and Rufus (especially Rufus), I shall point out, are comic relief characters. Most of the TF2 cast is comic relief in some form or fashion. Rare is the game where you'll find a serious, chunky, kind of homely, not very strong or badass male protagonist who drives a Corolla to his office job every day. I can't think of one off the top of my head (not to say it doesn't exist).

For women, beauty and sex appeal are highly valued. Capability and success are also regarded as a positive traits, but not to the degree that it exists for men. Thus, it is far more common to have the ineffectual but attractive female (I will point out that the incompetent yet attractive male is relatively common in Japanese media), because having a woman that's just a pretty face still works, and is still viewed as admirable. Having a woman who is homely, yet physically strong to the point of being heroic, is less realistic than a man who is homely, yet physically strong, simply due to sexual dimorphism. Thus, I think it is less likely to be believed, and is less likely to be portrayed in media. Plus, it is I think undeniable that society would not really know how to take this depiction, it's simply not as socially prevalent or accepted as the strong yet ugly man. It could be an interesting character flaw to explore, however.

Something I do find slightly disturbing is the notion that if a female character is a strong, uncompromising badass but also very attractive, it is sexist or somehow detracts from her worth. I'm uncomfortable with that notion since it sends the message, "You can't be attractive and strong at the same time." Life is not a game, and some people are lucky enough to get health, brains, look, personality, the whole package. It's rare, but often those people are able to leverage their capabilities to achieve great success in life. Heroic things, one might say. Such an exaggeration is believable for a game where you are supposed to be playing a hero.

By and large, protagonists in games, of either gender, are not under-average people. They are usually heroic, above average, or average at worst. There are exceptions to the rule, but not many.
Something i strongly agree with on your comments on artistic expression is that you shouldn't put anything in to be "edgy" or "not a racist", but i wonder what you would think about putting in elements, not for the intent to be non-whatever, but to discuss actual issues with race, sexuality, or anything else we've talked about here. What is the difference between exploitation or bigotry and delivering a game with an actual message? I think the difference might be subjective.

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This stems from my belief that it is morally right, if you produce a product, to maximize the number people that can enjoy it if doing so is at little/no further expense to yourself. Like, if I made a game and sold one copy for $1,000,000,000 (it's a really good game, guys!), but could have sold 100,000 copies and netted $1,000,000,000, I believe I would have done something immoral.

Something ironic i find about this idea is what if, unlike with Bioware games, you had a game that received high amounts of controversy before it was released? What if that controversy would cause you to sell less games than having played it straight (no pun intended)?[/font]
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Gears of War (Overused example, i know.)
Team Fortress 2 (The heavy class.)
Unreal Tournament (I think they had something similar to TF2's heavy.)
Street Fighter (Rufus, the sumo guy)
BlazBlue (Iron Tager, Arakune)


First off, Arakune's not even recognizably human so I'm not sure what he's doing on that list. He has a male, human voice I suppose, but his body is a gross blob thing.

This list plucks at the strings of something far, far more subtle happening, and something that is missed in debates about sexism. What is valued as positive traits varies between the sexes, and this is not often taken into account when making comparisons.[/quote]
It is an interesting point that i didn't use any sort of justification or rubric for deciding whether any character ever invented is ugly or not, male or female. The one thing that i did say was they had to be ugly or obese, the latter of which was more objective.

I want to note that i put Arakune on the list because i also couldn't think of any female amorphous monsters. Usually if a monster is female, it seems to exaggerate female traits.Arakune is interesting because he abstractly represents a man, which made me wonder how they would have abstractly represented a woman in that form.

Something i strongly agree with on your comments on artistic expression is that you shouldn't put anything in to be "edgy" or "not a racist", but i wonder what you would think about putting in elements, not for the intent to be non-whatever, but to discuss actual issues with race, sexuality, or anything else we've talked about here. What is the difference between exploitation or bigotry and delivering a game with an actual message? I think the difference might be subjective.


I believes games are a fantastic, expressive medium that are well-equipped to explore social issues. Making a game that explores controversial themes is perfectly acceptable in my book, and is in fact very cool. I would take exception with a really shallow character that seems to be breaking norms, but isn't, and is in fact only in there to try to seem progressive without actually being so. One's social commentary, the other's a marketing ploy.

Like...you seen Iron Man 2? Do you remember the scene where Happy (Tony Stark's chauffeur) and Natasha Romanoff (Scarlet Johansson's character) are breaking into what I think is the Hammer complex to apprehend Vanko?

Happy's in the lobby fighting one security guard for like, 5 minutes, rather poorly while Black Widow goes through the compound and kicks like every dude in the nuts along the way while striking sexy poses. I really hate depictions like this because I feel they are unfair to both genders.

For men, it has the theme of "haha you got beat by a girl you suck". Well, no shit, Happy's canonically an unsuccessful boxer while Natasha Romanoff's a secret agent. Of course she's a better fighter. Yes, men on average have more muscle mass than women and are larger (sexual dimorphism), but a woman who is very athletic is going to be way stronger than the vast majority of the male population. If a person's stronger than you, they're stronger than you, and there's no reason for them performing a physical task better than you to be shameful.

For women, I hate the depiction because I feel like it's trying to craft a "strong woman" strictly by comparing her to men, rather than showing her merits. It's like saying "She kicked all these guys in the junk, she must be so strong!" just because she beasted a bunch of inept security guards. Her strength is defined by the men around her and is not allowed to stand on its own two feet. Plus, she's not fighting strong people, just dudes who are substantially less badass than herself, and I fail to see how beating up weak people offers a compelling portrayal of strength. I can kick puppies all day long, but that doesn't make me strong.

You are definitely right in that the line is not a clear one.


[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][quote name='PropheticEdge' timestamp='1302740301' post='4798209']
This stems from my belief that it is morally right, if you produce a product, to maximize the number people that can enjoy it if doing so is at little/no further expense to yourself. Like, if I made a game and sold one copy for $1,000,000,000 (it's a really good game, guys!), but could have sold 100,000 copies and netted $1,000,000,000, I believe I would have done something immoral.

Something ironic i find about this idea is what if, unlike with Bioware games, you had a game that received high amounts of controversy before it was released? What if that controversy would cause you to sell less games than having played it straight (no pun intended)?[/font][/quote]

Yeah, that's a tough one to deal with. Lots of games exist to make money, and including things in your game that are contentious or offensive to some people could potentially damage sales. Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to please everyone, so you'll have to make compromises at some point.

At that point, it comes down to a production and marketing decision. There's, once again, a line you kind of have to draw in the sand between mass appeal and expression. I would not begrudge Bioware if they chose not to have same sex relations in Dragon Age, but it certainly makes sense for them to be included. I do think it's cool that they did it, both on a social level and as a means of creating a more believable world, and commend them for it.

Once again, it's a gray area. You can take trying to be too mainstream too far if the mainstream is being immoral, but deciding where to draw the line is not easy.


I want to note that i put Arakune on the list because i also couldn't think of any female amorphous monsters. Usually if a monster is female, it seems to exaggerate female traits.Arakune is interesting because he abstractly represents a man, which made me wonder how they would have abstractly represented a woman in that form.


Ah yes, that does make sense.

I think, if you're making something humanoid, it's pretty hard to make it totally gender neutral. For animals, it's pretty easy, but humans are amazingly good at recognizing the human form and picking up on subtle clues.and categorizing things as being male or female. Really one of the few ways to make something look gender neutral is to give it a child-like appearance, which is also tough to do for a monstrous humanoid.

For Arakune, I think the way he abstractly achieves masculinity is by his voice, and his extreme shoulder-hip ratio. You know, in as much as he has shoulders and hips. In his neutral form, his upper body is an inverted triangle, which is typical of the male form. When you strip away all other features, humans will still identify gender just from shape and sillhouette, and hips + waist + shoulders are some of the largest signifiers.

To make a monstrous humanoid like that gender neutral, you'd have to flatten out their upper body a lot and make them more or less tube shaped. Minimal waist, hips and shoulders about even. I suppose to make a female version of Arakune you'd have to add hips into the mix to give the character a feminine shape.

Xenomorphs, from the Alien film series, achieve an incredible mix of male-female traits that makes them very hard to identify as a gender, despite their relatively humanoid form. Like, it's absolutely incredible how well they're designed from an anatomical standpoint.
If you pulled me aside and asked, "Hey, here's this random fighter from Japan. What style do you think he uses?" I'd probably say, "Judo, Karate, or Kendo". This really has nothing to do with the color of his skin, but the culture he grew up in.[/quote]

That's not what we're talkin about though. Nice try. Stereotyping Japanese people as being good at Karate is not the same thing as that.

but a woman who is very athletic is going to be way stronger than the vast majority of the male population.[/quote]

WRONG. A 300 lb couch potato type guy will still dominate a woman who works out 5 days a week and is in top shape. Only chance she would have is kickin him in the nuts in an all out fight. That's not sexism, just reality.

WRONG. A 300 lb couch potato type guy will still dominate a woman who works out 5 days a week and is in top shape. Only chance she would have is kickin him in the nuts in an all out fight. That's not sexism, just reality.


A 300 lb couch potato would probably dominate most of the male population too, even males that worked out a decent amount of the time. Just by virtue of being able to lay on you.

And this is more dependent on the differences in how most males and most females work out. Females rarely work out to be stronger, they work out usually to be in better shape focusing on toning or cardio. Males tend to work on cardio. A female that worked on strength instead would probably do very well as can be evidenced by watching videos of female mma fighters who aren't training to have a shapely ass.

[quote name='OneThreeThreeSeven' timestamp='1302803845' post='4798486']
WRONG. A 300 lb couch potato type guy will still dominate a woman who works out 5 days a week and is in top shape. Only chance she would have is kickin him in the nuts in an all out fight. That's not sexism, just reality.


A 300 lb couch potato would probably dominate most of the male population too, even males that worked out a decent amount of the time. Just by virtue of being able to lay on you.

And this is more dependent on the differences in how most males and most females work out. Females rarely work out to be stronger, they work out usually to be in better shape focusing on toning or cardio. Males tend to work on cardio. A female that worked on strength instead would probably do very well as can be evidenced by watching videos of female mma fighters who aren't training to have a shapely ass.
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Sorry but that's ridiculous. I don't know where you guys are coming from, but female MMA fighters train to fight OTHER FEMALE MMA fighters for a reason. Even the average guy w/ the average weight would be able to take out a professional female MMA fighter...no problem. Men can take more blows to the head/body and also can dish out damage easier...period.

I'm all for equal women's rights but to make the statements you all are making is just ridiculous.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1302813773' post='4798554']
[quote name='OneThreeThreeSeven' timestamp='1302803845' post='4798486']
WRONG. A 300 lb couch potato type guy will still dominate a woman who works out 5 days a week and is in top shape. Only chance she would have is kickin him in the nuts in an all out fight. That's not sexism, just reality.


A 300 lb couch potato would probably dominate most of the male population too, even males that worked out a decent amount of the time. Just by virtue of being able to lay on you.

And this is more dependent on the differences in how most males and most females work out. Females rarely work out to be stronger, they work out usually to be in better shape focusing on toning or cardio. Males tend to work on cardio. A female that worked on strength instead would probably do very well as can be evidenced by watching videos of female mma fighters who aren't training to have a shapely ass.
[/quote]

Sorry but that's ridiculous. I don't know where you guys are coming from, but female MMA fighters train to fight OTHER FEMALE MMA fighters for a reason. Even the average guy w/ the average weight would be able to take out a professional female MMA fighter...no problem. Men can take more blows to the head/body and also can dish out damage easier...period.

I'm all for equal women's rights but to make the statements you all are making is just ridiculous.
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As much as I hate to feed trolls, I feel sort of compelled here.

I used to box a couple years ago. I started from an average level of fitness for a 22 year old male with slightly above average athletic affinity. Like, before I started boxing I could do at a moment's notice 50 pushups, 12 pullups, and/or run 3 miles (I wouldn't be happy at the end of 3 miles, but I could do it) in roughly 27 minutes (I've never been a great runner). I remember very well the first day I trained, I did jabs and jabs alone for 3 rounds (most drills were timed by the round clock). Just walking back and forth in a line, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab etc. A round in boxing is 3 minutes, and there's a minute break between rounds. I barely, just barely made it through those three rounds. By the end of the first round my arm was sore, at the end of the second round it was on fire, and it was pretty much numb by round three. This happened for the first couple weeks, but once my body adjusted I did a lot better. Within a few months I could do 4 rounds of shadow boxing, 4 rounds of heavy back work, 4 rounds of speed bag work and 4 rounds of agility training consecutively without much trouble. There were a couple of women at the gym, and some of them were definitely better boxers than I was and could hit harder despite me weighing more.

Muscular strength is not simply about raw power, but also about endurance and speed. Much of muscular strength is not derived from mass (which men do have more of on average, but this varies from person to person and you can certainly find women with more muscle mass than the average man), but rather from how well trained the muscle is to perform certain actions. Power is the most closely related to mass, but speed and endurance are closely related to training instead. When I boxed my weight hardly changed at all. I may have lost a bit of fat and gained a bit of muscle, but I was substantially faster, stronger and had better endurance at the end of it despite a relatively constant amount of muscle mass.

Not even related to physical conditioning is technique. Most people have no idea how to throw a punch at all. It's not as simple as swinging your arm at someone. A boxer's punch has a very specific form to it that is designed to leverage power not from the arm, but the entire body. It's a motion that starts in the feet, moves through the hips, abdomen, chest/shoulder and arm via a controlled rotation of the body. Beyond punching there's defense, balance, reaction time, knowing how to counter and look for openings, knowing where to punch someone to hurt them the most, how to take a hit and how to move while punching. None of these are particularly intuitive, they have to be taught.

If a person who is not already in amazing shape attempts to fight a boxer in a regular fist fight, they're not going to win unless they are substantially more powerful. Even if they weigh more, the boxer's still going to hit harder, and a boxer can just simply outlast someone who doesn't fight regularly. After a couple minutes of intense fighting the average person's going to be exhausted, and once you become exhausted in a fight it's over.

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