Interesting turn this thread has taken, with the economics. I never would have expected that one phrase to spur such a discussion. But it's all for exploration of ideas and stimulating imagination anyway, so it's all welcome.

I personally hate global auction houses. I feel that it removes something interesting from the game, when your prices are automatically shifted toward equilibrium for you and your items are emailed to their intended recipient. Travel is important in any game that wants pvp to play an important role (nominally WoW, certainly EvE, ect). If your desired item is across enemy territory, the need to get there safely provides opportunity+incentive for excitement, cooperation with escorts/fellow tradesmen, and a bit of exploration if you've never been there. It also means you can turn a profit by taking a risk others might not have the means or desire to take. Likewise, since prices are localized and not automatically shifted towards global equilibrium, you can profit by buying low+selling high. You're also only competing with local buyers and local prices, not the whole world.

You lose all of that with a global auction house. It's an added feature that strips overall depth, and thus I hate it. I don't, however, mind players knowing where they can shop and make a profit. I don't mind "reserving" an item so that it isn't gone when you get there, either. But I do believe that for a player to get the maximum benefit of something, they should put at least a little effort into it. I think players knowing where profits can be made creates an opportunity for 'expiditions' of a sort (group with friends/comrades, set out for money) without requiring vast information networks that simply wont form in small-time games.
[quote name='AceSteveC' timestamp='1314009764' post='4852216']
We don't need alternate ways of leveling. Your suggestions are like "make work" projects governments do to get people off the unemployment lists. We need content. There's no shortcut, there's no cheap way, there's just content, well written content with as much variety as possible.

I definitely beg to differ. Most mainstream games have quite a bit of content (by ways of quests, dungeons, zones, colorful NPC textures ect) and few if any pique my interest or the interest of those who aren't entertained by variations of get group, find instance/spawn point, kill things, hear NPC tell you how wonderful you are, && repeat. No number of pretty dungeons will intrigue someone whose primary concern is pvp, and no well written storyline will ever give a player who does not even read the text any form of satisfaction. To satisfy a player, the style of play must match their own tastes, and not all players even care that an NPC has a realistically scottish accent, or a two-day-to-read backstory.

There's no magic to it if you don't count great writing, great presentation (like TOR's 100% audible speech) and a bit of ingenuity in the mission design and no short cuts in the engine design that limit mission design.[/quote]I don't mean to say that these things aren't important: they are. But not to the exclusion of everything else. A player who only enjoys manipulating markets and establishing economic control wont ever see or care about the amazing mission involving a dragon raid on a town, no matter how well designed it is. It's outside of their interests, so they wont be satisfied by it. The idea behind this alternative leveling is to allow that player to feel progression and achievement in the same manner as someone who is delving into dungeons or running NPC quests without being forced into a playstyle that they do not enjoy.

I would argue that depth and variability is the most important thing. Players will chew up new content faster than you can make it. But a deep and dynamic system can yield experiences players haven't yet had, which is arguably the goal of new content - new experiences. I merely want to match those experiences to their desired playstyles.

If by content you mean more than just zones, dungeons, graphics, stories, ect, if what you mean is "things to do" or "ways to play" in general, then I wonder how this concept is contrary to that?
[/quote]

Mainstream games have limited variation on available content. Gear, quests, experience, battlegrounds, instanced dungeons,half arsed crafting. That is pretty much it. They seem to have been dumbed down for ease of access of new players. Now that we have these new players we need to give them a better game instead of the same old stuff. Make crafting more meaningful and competitive by designing a system that requires more thought. WoW'ish games are farm resources or go to AH and buy what you need to grind up the next ten points of skill. That doesn't take thought. It isn't fun in my mind. Why do we even need a complete recipe list ahead of time? I guess I enjoyed something more like Ultima Online where you had to figure out what resources were required, it wasn't just written down for you, and if you couldn't figure it out yourself you had to seek help. Thus forcing communication between players. I know that system isn't perfect, but what has become of crafting in WoW/Aion/Rift/etc I just don't find overly successful. Killing off the global market may make crafting more enjoyable again, but the crafting system itself needs alterations.

The content required isn't more quests, more instances, or more battlegrounds. The content required needs to be meaningful gameplay options to the individual and the community.

Bring back meaningful PVP a la RVR Dark Age of Camelot style.
Bring back player housing/city building a la Star Wars: Galaxies/Ultima Online(but more than just houses alone).
Kill the global marketplace.
Kill the gear grind.
Open up acquisition of goods to player's direct involvement. Gather resources, craft everything, don't loot gold/uber gear from dead animals.
Make gear break through use, repairs only so long.
Provide professions outside of fighting/crafting gear alone
Finally: Lessen the power curve. Allow players to actually enjoy the game right from the get go. Don't force them to grind for weeks before they can even compete and have fun with their high level friends. If they want to PVP to level they can. If they want to PVE to level they can. If they don't want to level at all they can pay for escorts through dangerous areas, make the trip alone, or never leave the safety of cities and become crafters/traders/etc.

*shrug* For me personally, it doesn't depend on the setting. I don't want shopping to be challenging, earning the money and figuring out what I want to buy is challenge enough. I definitely don't want to be a salesperson, I just personally find that sort of activity repulsive, both in real life and in games. Nor am I interested in being a pack mule carrying goods from one place to another (especially since that implies a lack of quick and convenient transportation). Anyway the point is that I personally as a player would 100% of the time prefer to play a game which has a global auction house and does not have player shops.

While you might not enjoy it, I had a blast being a merchant in Ultima Online. If there were just an auction house I probably could have traded faster and more frequently, but then you totally miss the personal interaction and bartering that made being a merchant in UO so much fun.

For something like Eve trading across regions is a core part of the economy that makes it so interesting. It would be awesome if you could automate trade routes by having a fleet of trade ships that did the traveling for you so you didn't actually have to go anywhere, but it's still something that makes the game very unique.

Mainstream games have limited variation on available content. Gear, quests, experience, battlegrounds, instanced dungeons,half arsed crafting. That is pretty much it. They seem to have been dumbed down for ease of access of new players. Now that we have these new players we need to give them a better game instead of the same old stuff. Make crafting more meaningful and competitive by designing a system that requires more thought. WoW'ish games are farm resources or go to AH and buy what you need to grind up the next ten points of skill. That doesn't take thought. It isn't fun in my mind. Why do we even need a complete recipe list ahead of time? I guess I enjoyed something more like Ultima Online where you had to figure out what resources were required, it wasn't just written down for you, and if you couldn't figure it out yourself you had to seek help. Thus forcing communication between players. I know that system isn't perfect, but what has become of crafting in WoW/Aion/Rift/etc I just don't find overly successful. Killing off the global market may make crafting more enjoyable again, but the crafting system itself needs alterations.

The content required isn't more quests, more instances, or more battlegrounds. The content required needs to be meaningful gameplay options to the individual and the community.

Bring back meaningful PVP a la RVR Dark Age of Camelot style.
Bring back player housing/city building a la Star Wars: Galaxies/Ultima Online(but more than just houses alone).
Kill the global marketplace.
Kill the gear grind.
Open up acquisition of goods to player's direct involvement. Gather resources, craft everything, don't loot gold/uber gear from dead animals.
Make gear break through use, repairs only so long.
Provide professions outside of fighting/crafting gear alone
Finally: Lessen the power curve. Allow players to actually enjoy the game right from the get go. Don't force them to grind for weeks before they can even compete and have fun with their high level friends. If they want to PVP to level they can. If they want to PVE to level they can. If they don't want to level at all they can pay for escorts through dangerous areas, make the trip alone, or never leave the safety of cities and become crafters/traders/etc.

How did you feel about Horizons?

[quote name='Caldenfor' timestamp='1314017023' post='4852263']
Mainstream games have limited variation on available content. Gear, quests, experience, battlegrounds, instanced dungeons,half arsed crafting. That is pretty much it. They seem to have been dumbed down for ease of access of new players. Now that we have these new players we need to give them a better game instead of the same old stuff. Make crafting more meaningful and competitive by designing a system that requires more thought. WoW'ish games are farm resources or go to AH and buy what you need to grind up the next ten points of skill. That doesn't take thought. It isn't fun in my mind. Why do we even need a complete recipe list ahead of time? I guess I enjoyed something more like Ultima Online where you had to figure out what resources were required, it wasn't just written down for you, and if you couldn't figure it out yourself you had to seek help. Thus forcing communication between players. I know that system isn't perfect, but what has become of crafting in WoW/Aion/Rift/etc I just don't find overly successful. Killing off the global market may make crafting more enjoyable again, but the crafting system itself needs alterations.

The content required isn't more quests, more instances, or more battlegrounds. The content required needs to be meaningful gameplay options to the individual and the community.

Bring back meaningful PVP a la RVR Dark Age of Camelot style.
Bring back player housing/city building a la Star Wars: Galaxies/Ultima Online(but more than just houses alone).
Kill the global marketplace.
Kill the gear grind.
Open up acquisition of goods to player's direct involvement. Gather resources, craft everything, don't loot gold/uber gear from dead animals.
Make gear break through use, repairs only so long.
Provide professions outside of fighting/crafting gear alone
Finally: Lessen the power curve. Allow players to actually enjoy the game right from the get go. Don't force them to grind for weeks before they can even compete and have fun with their high level friends. If they want to PVP to level they can. If they want to PVE to level they can. If they don't want to level at all they can pay for escorts through dangerous areas, make the trip alone, or never leave the safety of cities and become crafters/traders/etc.

How did you feel about Horizons?
[/quote]

Sadly not something I have personally played. I heard about it, but I probably had another game going on at the time which kept me away. Generally just a one MMO at a time kind of guy. I will try and do some research on it today while at work

How did you feel about Horizons?

Sadly not something I have personally played. I heard about it, but I probably had another game going on at the time which kept me away. Generally just a one MMO at a time kind of guy. I will try and do some research on it today while at work

How did you feel about Horizons?

I loved a lot of it, but sadly it missed the mark with some things. I often felt like I didn't know what to do next or where to go for some reason or another. There was a lot of needless running around due to the confusion, but the gameplay outside of that I thought was pretty cool. The crafting system was awesome and actually had an impact on the world around you. I actually crafted more than I PVEed.


The world also felt a little barren. Having more npcs even just generic ones would have done it a world of good.

This confusion + feeling of barrenness seems to be an extremely common problem with MMOs. I wonder where this problem comes from: a design which is missing pieces, a development and playtesting process which is missing a step to check for and repair this kind of problem, an incomplete development process where tutorials and quests are implemented last or not at all, a design philosophy that it's not important for the player to be given orientation, or maybe a failed attempt to combine sandbox design with non-sandbox design...?

Well the tutorials in horizons were pretty solid. I never struggled with how to do things. Just where to go. I feel almost like it was a failure in city planning, because I found it easy to know where I wanted to go. I just had no idea how to get there.

It was also awesome because you could play as a dragon, which was sweet.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1314154986' post='4853065']
I often felt like I didn't know what to do next or where to go for some reason or another. There was a lot of needless running around due to the confusion, but the gameplay outside of that I thought was pretty cool. The crafting system was awesome and actually had an impact on the world around you. I actually crafted more than I PVEed.


The world also felt a little barren. Having more npcs even just generic ones would have done it a world of good.

This confusion + feeling of barrenness seems to be an extremely common problem with MMOs. I wonder where this problem comes from: a design which is missing pieces, a development and playtesting process which is missing a step to check for and repair this kind of problem, an incomplete development process where tutorials and quests are implemented last or not at all, a design philosophy that it's not important for the player to be given orientation, or maybe a failed attempt to combine sandbox design with non-sandbox design...?
[/quote]

Well the concept I am working on is more to create a world rather than to create a leveling process. It is a very casual leveling game with a longer skilling up system in place alongside it. You enter the world and are given tokens for basic equipment, weapons and tools for harvesting/crafting, all of which is unable to be traded. There are members of the government(friendly NPCs) that will offer brief conversations to inspire players as to what they can do, but I do not aim to provide player maps or radar. There will be mapmaking via the Cartography profession to provide players with maps and you will be given a compass as a default User Interface object. I want players to explore at their own risk. Group up with other players to venture out into the wilderness. I am hoping to do away with resource nodes a la WoW and the like and return to players being able to attempt to harvest from the world around them. See some rocks, go up with your pickaxe/shovel and see if you can dig something up. This is most similar to Ultima Online harvesting. I just find the nodes system was able to detract from the world if improperly placed which I found to happen in other games all too often. Why is there a random ore node in the middle of a field with no other rocks around at all?

I walked a few miles through the woods today and guess what I saw? Two squirrels and a pileated woodpecker. That was only because I was paying extreme attention to what was around me. I find empty worlds are sometimes quite realistic rather than having random mobs EVERY where. Do I mind random mobs? No. Just don't force them to fill every inch of the game world. There are empty spaces in the wilderness void of other living creatures, mainly because they go unseen, but they aren't noticed none the less.


The point of my rambling? Well, I don't want to tell the players what to do. I want them to decide what they want to do. Make the learning process as easy as necessary, but don't spoon feed all players with every little thing about the game. Let some things be discovered and taught by players around them.

I walked a few miles through the woods today and guess what I saw? Two squirrels and a pileated woodpecker. That was only because I was paying extreme attention to what was around me. I find empty worlds are sometimes quite realistic rather than having random mobs EVERY where. Do I mind random mobs? No. Just don't force them to fill every inch of the game world. There are empty spaces in the wilderness void of other living creatures, mainly because they go unseen, but they aren't noticed none the less.

What I meant by worlds being barren had more to do with cities. Cities were almost entirely empty. When you look at even a small town in the real world, it has a population close to that of an entire server of players. You have to fill in the other population or your world won't feel alive.

People also play games because they are more interesting than real life. If I wanted to go walk around in the woods, I'd go walk around in the woods. I wouldn't go and play a walking-around-in-the-woods game.

The point of my rambling? Well, I don't want to tell the players what to do. I want them to decide what they want to do. Make the learning process as easy as necessary, but don't spoon feed all players with every little thing about the game. Let some things be discovered and taught by players around them.
[/quote]
I'd rethink this. You shouldn't tell the players what to do, but you absolutely have to suggest to players what they should do; often and obviously. Let the player make the choice, but don't make it difficult for the player to do what they want to do.

[quote name='Caldenfor' timestamp='1314201105' post='4853246']
I walked a few miles through the woods today and guess what I saw? Two squirrels and a pileated woodpecker. That was only because I was paying extreme attention to what was around me. I find empty worlds are sometimes quite realistic rather than having random mobs EVERY where. Do I mind random mobs? No. Just don't force them to fill every inch of the game world. There are empty spaces in the wilderness void of other living creatures, mainly because they go unseen, but they aren't noticed none the less.

What I meant by worlds being barren had more to do with cities. Cities were almost entirely empty. When you look at even a small town in the real world, it has a population close to that of an entire server of players. You have to fill in the other population or your world won't feel alive.

People also play games because they are more interesting than real life. If I wanted to go walk around in the woods, I'd go walk around in the woods. I wouldn't go and play a walking-around-in-the-woods game.

The point of my rambling? Well, I don't want to tell the players what to do. I want them to decide what they want to do. Make the learning process as easy as necessary, but don't spoon feed all players with every little thing about the game. Let some things be discovered and taught by players around them.
[/quote]
I'd rethink this. You shouldn't tell the players what to do, but you absolutely have to suggest to players what they should do; often and obviously. Let the player make the choice, but don't make it difficult for the player to do what they want to do.
[/quote]

The first part is why other than a few obligatory NPC outposts I wanted to add player city building in the PVE portion of the world. These player cities would be able to have NPC guards and the like, but they would be predominately inhabited by players themselves. I wouldn't expect miles upon miles of open wilderness, but I wouldn't have the game world cluttered with NPCs for the sake of experience grinding a la Rift/etc. It would be a tough thing to balance, but I think it is entirely possible to avoid too little and too much.

At the start of the game you would have skills listed that are available to you via your User Interface. There would be the NPCs in the starting area that give warnings/implant ideas as to what the player may want to do and what they may want to avoid doing, "Don't go East, very dangerous out that way" very basic warning. You start without a class, but as you raise skills you unlock classes once the requirements are met. There would be NPCs to assist in the education of this process, much like joining different units of an army. You could speak with them and they could inform you that you aren't experienced enough, go work on such and such a skill and come back to me later. This would direct players as to what skills would be necessary to choose their class of choice.

The token system for new players could also serve as an introduction for the player. The items of which they could trade the tokens in for would have a brief description as to what they are used for. There could be a very very basic map of the immediate area if a player felt the need for one. What is available in exchange for the tokens could be a very good mechanic to introducing the player to the world. These tokens don't need to be overly limited as the starting items are very rudimentary starting items that will be replaced by player created things in time. Items can be added or removed as necessary for the sake of the players. Rather than having a forced tutorial, have a semi-transparent one of which the players can take the time to pay attention to if they feel lost or they can skip it and go right for the meat of the game, grab what they want and head out, if they already know what to do.

There could be tasks handed out by NPCs to give ideas as to what a player could do to forge their way in the world. Not quests with diluted stories, but just... go do this and I will impart some knowledge on you when you return.