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DropnFBombs

Microsoft burned down my home, where now?

42 posts in this topic

Ok, it seems this thread has almost turned into a C++ vs. C# kind of thread almost.  We've been down that road before getting no where but a dead split with some developers thinking C++ will remain the industry standard for games with C# being, like was mentioned, a "pet" language, with even some professional developers saying they feel the switch to C# will happen and it could become standard.  I just feel it'd be a pretty expensive move for companies to switch their entire code base over to a new language.

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Yup, I thought he meant the code for the game executable itself. Tools, shaders, and scripting are a separate issue. C++ isnt used for those because they are inherently different from executable code, which is the purview of C++.

 

That was a terrible defensive response and you know it :D a game isn't a mere exe and dlls :P; funny you should mention shaders though, because if anything it seems all my graphics development focuses more on HLSL than C# / C++ combined, but then what would I know, by your own words C# programmers are "amateur developers" (im amazed no one commented on that yet) :P

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There are rumors already that MS has a new version of a managed Direct X language that will coincide with the release of the new XBOX version
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There are rumors already that MS has a new version of a managed Direct X language that will coincide with the release of the new XBOX version

 

I must have missed that. Any link ?

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There were already Managed DirectX tutorial threads and managed vs non-managed flame wars here on Gamedev and other forums a few years before Microsoft even announced XNA.  There were also several .NET games programming blogs around that simply updated their content to be XNA specific.  Also the C++ DirectX SDK also had a couple of examples using C# as a scripting language from within a native C++ game.  So I think it already had traction in the game dev comunity before XNA.
 

 

Mind you you only have to remmember what happened to managed DirectX and then it isn't really a suprise that microsoft dropped XNA.

 

And despite that you can still create a new Windows Forms app in Visual Studio today, go to References, Add Reference, pick ".NET" and all of the "Microsoft.DirectX" stuff is still available for use.

 

That's a cautionary lesson in the whole "WAAAHH!!!  MICROSOFT KILLED XNA AND NOW I CAN DO NOTHING!!!!" drama.  Despite the fact that Managed DirectX was killed years ago, it is still available for use.  What is it that is causing people to think that the situation would be otherwise with XNA?

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zounds...i'm really glad I wasn't the only one not picking my nose and not communicating with anyone about this issue.

 

On the other hand, shame on you people! I've been learning C# for awhile now, and from a developer standpoint, this is an investment. I don't have time or resources to doubt myself and reverse all the time I've spent on it now in favor of C++.

It's not about the language, it's about what you say, right?

On the other hand, XNA is/was THE ONLY WAY to port a game over to 360. Smoke that chiba for a minute. I really could care less about XNA framework for PC, but again, there is/was no other way to get your game on 360. Furthermore, I work on a graphics chip that isn't supported by XNA 4.0, therefor not supported by Monogame.

 

So yeah, MS did sort of burn the house down on that. Considering the overwhelming popularity of 360 in the North American market, the door is closing on Indie Devs for a console market. You could make the argument that MS is edging us out in favor of the large studios like Bethesda and Gearbox, because they HAVE NO CREATIVITY LEFT. They need the pull of Microsoft and Sony to dick us out of their field. You really think they want creative, amped-up competition from about 10,000 indie devs that have poured more heart and soul into this than a 2-year program at the Art Institute could ever buy?

 

yeah, sorry...I'm a novice, amateur. again, it's not about the language, it's about what you say. there's a lot of untapped potential left in the 360, but you can only sell the console to so many people before everyone's got one.

 

anyway, thanks for clarifying a few things I've been wondering about, also. cool community, glad it's here, just not sure where to go for Console development from here on out.

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XNA isn't working anymore on the 360? When did that happen?

rolleyes.gif

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On the other hand, XNA is/was THE ONLY WAY to port a game over to 360. Smoke that chiba for a minute. I really could care less about XNA framework for PC, but again, there is/was no other way to get your game on 360. Furthermore, I work on a graphics chip that isn't supported by XNA 4.0, therefor not supported by Monogame.
 
So yeah, MS did sort of burn the house down on that. Considering the overwhelming popularity of 360 in the North American market, the door is closing on Indie Devs for a console market.

Does XNA still work on the 360? Because if so whats the problem?

All this means is that MS are no longer going to develop XNA going forward which makes sense as it is a poor fit, API wise, for newer hardware which exists.

Chances are that next XBox will have an 'indie' section like the 360 and because it is expected to be built on the same foudations as Windows Phone 8 and Windows Store apps development will be along the same lines; pick your language (C++ being an option, so already indies can get ahead of the game) and go.

At least this is what I expect anyway...
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...I've been learning C# for awhile now, and from a developer standpoint, this is an investment. I don't have time or resources to doubt myself and reverse all the time I've spent on it now in favor of C++...

Luckily programming skill isn't language specific. There is no reason to "reverse all the time" to switch over from C#/XNA to C++/DX/OGL since most of the actual knowledge transfers over (protip: syntax and api aren't the hard part about programming :p).

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Those "Mummy, XNA is dead" threads have occured quite often lately. I suspect this was a flame bait post, the OP was a new poster and his pseudonym is very suspicious.
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More generally speaking, a lot of us are growing irritated with the sheer rate that MS is deprecating, transitioning, or just plain forgetting about some of their newer technologies. That's a much different and longer conversation, but I'll say the same thing I've said before: it's no longer a Microsoft-only world of consumer computing. There's an awful lot of consumer-facing devices that aren't Windows, and that's got serious implications for how developers choose their tech.

 

Yeah I guess we have to remember that Microsoft is a company, backed by large investors, and they need to answer to these investors. Investors only care about one thing. Making money. I remember back when Bill Gates was CEO, one investor on a conference call asked him to give less to charity, and try and generate more for the investors (or something like that). Microsoft needs to keep us buying products and spending money. So when they "deprecate" products, yeah it sucks, but I kind of understand that is just how it works. They don't just make tech to please us developers... It's a business, they need to be where the money is. 

 

I'm totally with you (Promit) about Metro. I'm disinterested.

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Somehow I'm not in a hurry to jump on the Metro train

Heh, I'm glad I'm not the only paranoid one who thinks twice before jumping on yet-another-soon-to-be-killed bandwaggon...

 

Unfortunately, I gotta totally agree also with the rest your Inconvenient Truth (TM).

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XNA is mature and not dead, which actually makes developing with it easier than if it were still growing.  Just like in human relationships, mature is better !

 

Monogame is really the way to go, but either way, games made with XNA or Monogame will run for years in people's devices.

 

Enjoy the development environment for years to come, stop complaining, and start making money with games soon! Construction on the doorway has practically stopped, but the Door is still open! 

 

 

Clinton

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XNA is mature and not dead, which actually makes developing with it easier than if it were still growing.  Just like in human relationships, mature is better !

 

Monogame is really the way to go, but either way, games made with XNA or Monogame will run for years in people's devices.

 

Enjoy the development environment for years to come, stop complaining, and start making money with games soon! Construction on the doorway has practically stopped, but the Door is still open! 

 

 

Clinton

 

This is a great answer that touches on one other important point: the fact that XNA is no longer being developed means that the API has stabilized.  Means that you can safely develop using XNA now and know that your code is still going to run and be valid in 5 years time as Microsoft won't be pulling the carpet out from under you by changing the API.

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I read most of this but not sure if it was mentioned. 

 

You can't download the DirectX SDK for Vs2012 however the Windows SDk (free) contains the DirectX SDk and can be used with vs2012 yes that includes express. 

 

So if you're wanting to develop with C++ you won't need to spend anymore, download the Visual Studio Express 2012 for Desktop and Windows SDK for Windows 7 or WIndows SDK if you're on Windows 8. 

 

I hope I've helped. 

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By the way - I forgot to mention - Unity 3D was originally based from Mono, which many people don't know.  Stuff has been ported from Mono/C# and Unity 3D version iterations have taken a life of their own, but you see the enormous potential in staying with C#.  You can do almost anything using libraries in C# that you could do in C++ and vice versa.  Being tough to stay the course is important to demonstrate to your network and future prospects, as well.  smile.png

 

I really am critical of switching anything major unless there is legitimate, compelling reason to do so.  It is very important to excel in one game engine and one or two languages before moving to something else, normally, in my trying-to-stay-humble opinion.  tongue.png

 

 

 

Clinton

Edited by 3Ddreamer
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