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Can a lone indie dev do an open world like this?

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31 comments, last by Xai 9 years ago

At the end of the day - or should I say: end of the decade? - what counts is that the OP will gain lots of useful experience from trying to pull this thing off.

I don't think we gain much from trying to talk him out of it.

There are things that you just have to try and do yourself.

And, perhaps he will actually accomplish something?

True dat.... if people always listened to common wisdom at the time, a lot of great and revolutionary games wouldn't have been made...

Though it is kinda helpful to embark on such an adventure with the good advice that others deemed it difficult to pull off... also, that was what the TO asked. If it would be possible.

Seems most answers are pretty similar: "Yes, but....".

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Buster2000, on 13 May 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

jacmoe, on 12 May 2015 - 4:34 PM, said:

A relatively short amount of time would probably be 10 years. Relative to a complete game development studio.
All the lore needs to be written, quests has to be written, 1000s of objects needs to have an icon, a description, stats and logic..
That is just a huge amount of work.


This could be procedural too:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/


Yeah, and the site footer says: Dwarf Fortress started October 2002

Yes it does and the release date was August 2006.

Caveman 3,0 is a solo gamedev project. open world. custom engine. 65 types of weapons, 50 types of monsters, 300+ types of objects, 1000+ actions, a 2500x2500 mile game world, 10,000 dungeons.

i have 26 years experience as a gamedev.

time spent so far: about 10,500 man-hours.

total estimated time to complete: about 12,000 man hours.

i try to work 18 hours a day, 6 1/2 days a week. but that pace can usually only be maintained for a couple years before burnout starts to creep in. These days i'm doing good if i manage 80 hours per week on it.

engines were still expensive when i started on the game. next time i'd use unity etc.

game is bigger and taking longer than expected. next time, i'd probably not do it as being "too big". IE the larger the time investment, the lower the chance of it selling well enough to make it worth the time.

can it be done? yes. more importantly: should it be done? probably not.

"A game that has no main story missions/quests and is progressed as the player does what

they want to do, everything un-lockable such as abilities, weapons and customization is locked behind an
experience system. Which is basically earned through doing the activities you want."

Caveman does all this already - i forgot to mention it tracks experience in 45 different skills.

Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1989"

rocklandsoftware.net

PLAY CAVEMAN NOW!

http://rocklandsoftware.net/beta.php

Impressive project Norman!

It takes a caveman to create one. :)

Too many projects; too much time

Caveman 3,0 is a solo gamedev project. open world. custom engine. 65 types of weapons, 50 types of monsters, 300+ types of objects, 1000+ actions, a 2500x2500 mile game world, 10,000 dungeons.

i have 26 years experience as a gamedev.

time spent so far: about 10,500 man-hours.

Really impressive, Norman!

I think your example shows what can be done with dedication (that is some awesome amount of hours you put in there), AND with a strong focus in gameplay.

Correct me if I am wrong, Norman, but as far as I understood your project it is some kind of massive prehistoric simulation, meaning no story or setpieces, no manmade structures, and other similar constraints that keep the scale down a little bit.

I would say for the TO, the important things to take away from the example is:

- 12'000 hours / 6 hours per week = 40 years of dev time...

- You need to make a clear commitement to what you want to focus on. If the scale and the open world are the most important aspects, you have a good example here. Just don't try to pull a GTA stunt and try to make it a story driven game, also with a deep combat system, and vehicle physics, and so on at the same time. The last GTA version was so expensive to produce for a reason.

- Norman has 26 years of expierience according to his own word... that is an impressive number. You can bet he knows enough about game dev not only to pull a massive project like this off, but also to be realistic about the timeline and scale he can achieve.

As a beginner, you might want to take some additional baby steps first....

A lone indie needs to take a very different strategy to achieve any outcome (vs a big team).

You won't have an army of artists to make a world-design, so you have to think about the cost of content creation in an open-world.

Is this open-world going to be procedural (Minecraft, Outerra Anteworld)? community created (Minecraft)? borrowed (DayZ / Arma)?

Regardless of the strategy, I recommend bringing up a minimum viable prototype as fast as possible. This has a way of getting ideas out of forum discussions and into where the rubber hits the road.

I'm going to add my two cents here just for the heck of it.

Can it be done? Of course it can, however, I think really defining the end goals and what it means to be "done" is a necessity. Are you looking for a completely polished end result with foliage, atmospheric effects, day/night cycles, encounters, NPC's, etc? Or would you be happy for an open world with a more of a run-through or fly-through strategy?

The main obstacle isn't going to be the shiny, the sparkly, or the otherwise refinement, moreso, the main obstacle will be deciding HOW you will store and render the world data. What types of data structures will you use? How will the current and adjacent areas of the world be loaded/unloaded? How is visibility, particularly for distant areas, going to be handled. Those are some of the main obstacles that are going to be fundamental to a project such as this.

Look at Turbine; they created Asheron's Call (which is STILL my hands-down favorite game of all-flippin-time) which consists of an enormous seamless world on the scale of which I have yet to see outdone. And I mean the gameworld is expansive and seamless in every direction. You can be anywhere in that game, pick any direction, and run. You can start from the south shoreline and run in a straight path to the northern shoreline, traversing rivers, forests, deserts, and mountains in the process. You can get utterly lost in swamps. It's really impressive, unlike more modern games, like World of Warcraft which give you the illusion that their world is seemless, but in reality, is a small space that is divided by borders or mountains which herd the players in one direction. It does seem like an expansive and sprawling world, but try to explore. Try to find someplace that's never been seen before. Try to journey to that blip on the horizon. In WoW you can't, in AC you can. And that is what I love more than anything about that game; the exploration and lack of structure. Phew, excuse me for that tangent, apparently my passion is showing.

Back to the topic on hand. Turbine did all that, created an online world that still trumps anything out there, with a core team of 5 people over the course of about 5 to 6 years. All college students, giving, sleeping, eating, and breathing the development of this game (which took place in the home of one of the founder of the company, causing his mother to move out, lol). However, what you need to remember is that they were 100% innovative and created something that had not been done before. From the graphics engine, to the network code, to the load-balancing mechanics; everything that was done was done so from the ground up using C++. It required nothing more than dedication, commitment, and the ability to think outside of the box. The learning process was a by-product of that.

I love the story, and consider it my calling, missed. Haha! Heck, before kids, wives (yes, plural), and "real life" I totally would have a sleeping bag on Jon's floor too. At any rate, it's a story that continues to inspire me to this day.

http://www.mit.edu/~jonmon/Business/Turbine/

So the moral of the story is: yes it can be done, provided that you are willing to be innovative, committed, and think outside of the proverbial box! If it's your heart's desire, I say chase that dream! I have yet to do that, myself.


meaning no story or setpieces, no manmade structures, and other similar constraints that keep the scale down a little bit.

no hard coded storyline quests yet, but i'll probably add them. thy only thing i don't like about them is the lack of replayability. the paleo-world simulation is like a blank page just waiting for story to be told on it.

huts, lean-to's, temporary shelters, storage pits, and landmarks are the only man made structures in the game. so only 7 building models required! <g>.

massive re-use is made of assets (meshes, textures, models, animations). the result is a world similar to Skyrim or The SIMs, executed with just 200 meshes, 386 textures, 171 models, and 165 animations (so far). By contrast, a single dungeon level in Skyrim probably has many more meshes, and as many textures. Skyrim has fewer monster types, but more people models, so many more models overalll, at least twice as many. The SIMs v1.0 shipped with over 1000 animations. Although Caveman has over 1000 actions (A la The SIMS), i'll probably be able to get away with about 40 animations for all of them by changing things like item in hand and items on ground nearby.

The underlying world map is procedurally generated, and terrain chunks and collision maps are generated on the fly as needed from the world map, so no need to model an entire world like in Skyrim.

Dungeon (cavern) maps are also procedurally generated. so no need to model "Bleak Falls Barrow" and the 200+ other dungeons, like in Skyrim.

At the end of the day, its content creation that's the real killer. And for that there's only a few ways to go:

1. an army of artisits

2. procedural content generation

3. massive reuse of assets

4. license available 3rd party assets for use (i figured about $10K to license just the skinned mesh assets for Caveman).

5. use of PD/free/existing assets

6. do it yourself and just take forever to make the game assets for a large title.

Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1989"

rocklandsoftware.net

PLAY CAVEMAN NOW!

http://rocklandsoftware.net/beta.php

negazina,

here's what i would do:

based on your current skill level and free time, figure out what you can get done in two weeks. then give yourself a month to do it. engineers are always overly optimistic about time estimates. take your best guess, then double it. you won't be far from wrong. then go ahead and do it. doesn't matter what it is or how basic. drawing a mesh in unity, or just clearing the screen in DX or OGL. the important thing is, its the first step. then figure out what's the next step. if you aren't sure, post a question here on gamedev. continue to develop modules/features/capabilities in an agile/sprint fashion. soon you'll have enough parts to start prototyping and demoing things.

but begin with the end in mind. worry about the problems you haven't figured out how to solve yet. that's ALL that matters in game development. once you know how to do something, the rest is all grunt work. so in your case don't start on the game until you figure out the asset creation problem and ALL other issues related to its large scope and your small dev team size. if you can't AHEAD OF TIME solve all the problems that get you from project start to gone gold, DON'T START AT ALL! IE don't even try to build the game until you've figured out to a reasonable level of detail exactly how it _ALL_ can be done. emphasis on ALL. you need every piece of the puzzle, every link in the chain, every potential issue anticipated and solved before sitting down to the PC. after all, one doesn't go to war without at least some idea of how to win. and win not just the first battle, but ALL battles necessary for final victory.

Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1989"

rocklandsoftware.net

PLAY CAVEMAN NOW!

http://rocklandsoftware.net/beta.php

As long as you consider the time it will take, sure, it is possible. Just remember that in 10 years, technology will have advanced a great deal. Consider the time it will take to learn those skills and do them well (It has taken me at least 5 years to get to the state I am at now, which is a novice).

They call me the Tutorial Doctor.

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