Example of a large game written in asm, according to this
http://www.chrissawyer.com/faq3.htm
Rollercoaster tycoon was written in 99% asm...
While i do agree that knowning asm and having a basic understanding of how computers work is a Good Thing, writing everything in asm isn''t the be all and end all of optimisation. Shaving 1 extra cycle out of your dot product code isn''t going to yeild as big a speed up as getting 1000 calls to DotProduct() out of you render loop via caching or algo redesign.
And that''s one of the ways HLL''s make optimisation easier. Most major speed ups are going to come from better algorithms. (using a BSP/PVS system instead of just frustrum culling for example) With HLL''s, ripping out huge chunks of code and replacing them is a much easier, cleaner process.
Anyways... don''t bother trying to make it *fast* until you can make it *work*, and then, don''t try to make it *fast* unless you know that it''s actaully *slow*. Profile. Profile. Profile.
EVERYONE READ THIS
Author
Oluseyi: "I wanna work for Microsoft!" - How cute 
NickB: "I suspect that your blackhole problem is a FEM type problem" - Maybe. It''s just an idea which inspires me. It''s the problem of those who are currently trying to solve it. I didn''t dig into it myself yet.
UnshavenBastard:
"hhmm.. And I thought you were from Germany" - Almost I''m going to Germany next year for studying. Probably TU-Munchen or TU-Berlin (Technical University of Munchen/Berlin). I''ll probably stay in Germany permanently and set up my business there.
"I meant to see a special mistake that germans like to
do when speaking/writing english..." - what''s that?
"I didn''t know that there were still demo programmers alive, in "our" country (Germany)" - why not?
"from what country are you then?" - I''m russian (surprise!). However I live in Cyprus. You probably haven''t heard of this lame island, but you might have heard of the town Ayia-Napa (another version of Ibiza ) That''s where all the clubbing goes on in summer.
"I asked, if "the party" was in that country where they
invented "roasted onions" (denmark)" - that''s right
"And I''m going to search for a contact-button at
www.farb-rausch.de, to disturb the guys there with
some questions." - First of all, it''s www.farb-rausch.com now. Secondly, if you want to contact them go to http://www.theproduct.de/link.html and contact one of the developers in the list.
By the way, are you a uni student?
XCHG: There''s a problem with email delivery to my address (webmaster@vortexgate.com), so if you''ve sent me any new emails after I sent you the email saying "By the way, have you ever dealt with the Motorola 68HC11 chip or the Z80?" (I hope you received it), send it again to my "other" address: neo_x16@hotmail.com (I know how lame it sounds. It''s an old story).
In fact if anyone wants to contact me use that address for the time being. vortexgate.com days are almost over (two weeks to go) and I''m not renewing it. Shortly I''ll have a new .com address. I''m considering setting up a team of developers who are interested in demo coding and the likes.
Anonymous Poster: "XCHG is just blatantly one of those kiddies that were mentioned in the first post. The type who think they know how to program cos they followed a hello world example. XCHG, kindly grow up, grow a penis, get laid, get some friends and stop talking out you fat hairy anus." - Cool it sh*thead. In fact, everyone calm down and post something informative on the subject (ie: something that hasn''t been said 10 times already) rather than arguing with each other about who the real moron is.
NickB: "I suspect that your blackhole problem is a FEM type problem" - Maybe. It''s just an idea which inspires me. It''s the problem of those who are currently trying to solve it. I didn''t dig into it myself yet.
UnshavenBastard:
"hhmm.. And I thought you were from Germany" - Almost
I''m going to Germany next year for studying. Probably TU-Munchen or TU-Berlin (Technical University of Munchen/Berlin). I''ll probably stay in Germany permanently and set up my business there."I meant to see a special mistake that germans like to
do when speaking/writing english..." - what''s that?
"I didn''t know that there were still demo programmers alive, in "our" country (Germany)" - why not?
"from what country are you then?" - I''m russian (surprise!). However I live in Cyprus. You probably haven''t heard of this lame island, but you might have heard of the town Ayia-Napa (another version of Ibiza
) That''s where all the clubbing goes on in summer."I asked, if "the party" was in that country where they
invented "roasted onions" (denmark)" - that''s right
"And I''m going to search for a contact-button at
www.farb-rausch.de, to disturb the guys there with
some questions." - First of all, it''s www.farb-rausch.com now. Secondly, if you want to contact them go to http://www.theproduct.de/link.html and contact one of the developers in the list.
By the way, are you a uni student?
XCHG: There''s a problem with email delivery to my address (webmaster@vortexgate.com), so if you''ve sent me any new emails after I sent you the email saying "By the way, have you ever dealt with the Motorola 68HC11 chip or the Z80?" (I hope you received it), send it again to my "other" address: neo_x16@hotmail.com (I know how lame it sounds. It''s an old story).
In fact if anyone wants to contact me use that address for the time being. vortexgate.com days are almost over (two weeks to go) and I''m not renewing it. Shortly I''ll have a new .com address. I''m considering setting up a team of developers who are interested in demo coding and the likes.
Anonymous Poster: "XCHG is just blatantly one of those kiddies that were mentioned in the first post. The type who think they know how to program cos they followed a hello world example. XCHG, kindly grow up, grow a penis, get laid, get some friends and stop talking out you fat hairy anus." - Cool it sh*thead. In fact, everyone calm down and post something informative on the subject (ie: something that hasn''t been said 10 times already) rather than arguing with each other about who the real moron is.
quote:Quote by VXG in this post:
I'm interesting in 3D programming and I've done plenty of research on this stuff to find the best language and API to do it with and I've decided to do it with C++ and (you guessed it) OpenGL. I'm currently learning C++ with the Teach Yourself C++ In 21 Days book
That was in November. Already you're against C++?
quote:If all the real programmers would instantly disappear then what would happen to the industry?
If all women were to instantly disappear, how will the human race survive? It's a pointless and moronic question. Also I started out with a high-level language, QBasic, and gradually worked my way from there, to VB, then C++, then assembly. But I use C++ for my programming, occasionally, but rarely, adding ASM for optimization. It's wrong to assume ASM is better just because it's harder. It's very good to know, not necessarily very good to use.
~CGameProgrammer( );
Edited by - CGameProgrammer on February 9, 2002 2:39:54 PM
Oh man, 2600 sure does have a lot to say, but please, at least read my first point about his article;
I must warn against anyone who reads it! In the middle he justifies unreadable code. This sickens me to no end.
1) He seems to think "Commenting" your code means your
code is readable. I can only YAK at the thought of his
variable names. pfshr.
GEEZE! Readable code is not just meant to make the next
user's job easier! Get a life!
Just for starters, well written code:
a) Makes your bug fixes and modification easier because
hey! It is easier to read and thus makes you remember what the hell you did before.
b) Using indented code takes only a fraction of the second, like hitting the tab key. But making readable code is not just hitting the tab key. Good variable names for one. Not using multiple references in one line ( like h.p.y ) is another (if you think it is OK, try to debug if 'h', 'p' or 'y' is curupt).
Overall, well written code compiles relatively (if not exactly in most cases) to code of the same assembly and same efficiency. If you are not proud of your company enough to help others out, you are a looser, and they have a right to fire you. 2600 must have been fired several times, because he sure seems bitter.
I stopped reading this BS after that, but before that section, here are other comments I noted;
1) Black background, green letters...For those readers that are new to computers, welcome to history in the remake.
2) Art and Science. The best word for this is Craft. I like the term personally. Just an observation. Not criticism.
3) As some may have heard in different places, is code DNA?
4) Excel has a hidden psuedo-game in it!
5) Yes, Yes! Game programming is not cutting edge! I totally agree. That is why I still play ShadowRun on my SNES some times.
6) Geese, and all those people playing 7th Guest (which was a multimedia feast) thought it was a game. Hmm.
7) 2600 keeps getting confused between Game Programming and Game Design.
8) Starting with the "Game Coders Today" area, 2600 takes a turn for the worse souding as if anybody younger than him will never reach his level, and do not understand anything at all. He needs to head to Joyopolis some day, and that is only Sega.
9) About the 'making people learn libraries' speach. I told a friend he was using a crutch when he was using Alegro. Mean time, I was doing asm to do all my low level graphic routines myself. Three years later, we are both using DirectX, and he has more experience using a 3rd party library and making tools. Sure, I know how to do low-level programming more, but how many secrets about DirectX does many people know?
10) Here is the big one, about the statement concerning people not writing their own drivers and such. OH man. Yes, people today can do it, and they are. One example is me, one man team, doing hobby work. I have only enough free time after work to concentrate on game design and the programming that makes it happen. If you have a huge team, then great, write your own low level drivers that the rest of the team can use.
11) Talking about programming a cell phone...my wife is actually working on the next gen. of Foma. For those not in Japan, we actually have color cell phones that have live video. For those who were able to go to the Tokyo Game Show and visited the Foma booth, they got to see it work.
12) It is easy to create art. I believe one guy pissed in a jar, and stuck a cross in it. Many people think this is art.
13) Vendors and publishers do not help. I agree. Publishers pushed the completing of Daikatana out too early. That would have been a great game if Romero just had six more years to work on it.
However, I agree that if, for example, their card, driver, etc. does not fit your needs, do not use or support it.
14) Talking about offests in the BMP file, There is one bit that can be set that causes the blue on the bottom to rotate colors if used as the splash screen when Windows is loading.
15) Hard ware programming is easy. The problem is, some things are tasks everyone wants to do, like draw a line. So a smart person wrote a library to do it. Eventually, for example(good or bad), it became DirectX. Do not turn your nose to Re-use. 16)However, I agree with at least trying to do it yourself at least one time. A valuable sentence indeed. I made three complete 3D engines before I decided to try DirectX or OpenGl. They were a breeze because I knew what they were doing behind the scenes,
17) oh man... watch out for code that uses other libraries. I totally agree on this one, and hence warn against all books with the title "...Guru.." in it.
Hey! XCHG! Thanks for mentioning my name. I am glad someone noticed that little move. OH crap. Now the moderator will close this thread also!
Edited by - taulin on February 9, 2002 3:08:54 PM
I must warn against anyone who reads it! In the middle he justifies unreadable code. This sickens me to no end.
1) He seems to think "Commenting" your code means your
code is readable. I can only YAK at the thought of his
variable names. pfshr.
GEEZE! Readable code is not just meant to make the next
user's job easier! Get a life!
Just for starters, well written code:
a) Makes your bug fixes and modification easier because
hey! It is easier to read and thus makes you remember what the hell you did before.
b) Using indented code takes only a fraction of the second, like hitting the tab key. But making readable code is not just hitting the tab key. Good variable names for one. Not using multiple references in one line ( like h.p.y ) is another (if you think it is OK, try to debug if 'h', 'p' or 'y' is curupt).
Overall, well written code compiles relatively (if not exactly in most cases) to code of the same assembly and same efficiency. If you are not proud of your company enough to help others out, you are a looser, and they have a right to fire you. 2600 must have been fired several times, because he sure seems bitter.
I stopped reading this BS after that, but before that section, here are other comments I noted;
1) Black background, green letters...For those readers that are new to computers, welcome to history in the remake.
2) Art and Science. The best word for this is Craft. I like the term personally. Just an observation. Not criticism.
3) As some may have heard in different places, is code DNA?
4) Excel has a hidden psuedo-game in it!
5) Yes, Yes! Game programming is not cutting edge! I totally agree. That is why I still play ShadowRun on my SNES some times.
6) Geese, and all those people playing 7th Guest (which was a multimedia feast) thought it was a game. Hmm.
7) 2600 keeps getting confused between Game Programming and Game Design.
8) Starting with the "Game Coders Today" area, 2600 takes a turn for the worse souding as if anybody younger than him will never reach his level, and do not understand anything at all. He needs to head to Joyopolis some day, and that is only Sega.
9) About the 'making people learn libraries' speach. I told a friend he was using a crutch when he was using Alegro. Mean time, I was doing asm to do all my low level graphic routines myself. Three years later, we are both using DirectX, and he has more experience using a 3rd party library and making tools. Sure, I know how to do low-level programming more, but how many secrets about DirectX does many people know?
10) Here is the big one, about the statement concerning people not writing their own drivers and such. OH man. Yes, people today can do it, and they are. One example is me, one man team, doing hobby work. I have only enough free time after work to concentrate on game design and the programming that makes it happen. If you have a huge team, then great, write your own low level drivers that the rest of the team can use.
11) Talking about programming a cell phone...my wife is actually working on the next gen. of Foma. For those not in Japan, we actually have color cell phones that have live video. For those who were able to go to the Tokyo Game Show and visited the Foma booth, they got to see it work.
12) It is easy to create art. I believe one guy pissed in a jar, and stuck a cross in it. Many people think this is art.
13) Vendors and publishers do not help. I agree. Publishers pushed the completing of Daikatana out too early. That would have been a great game if Romero just had six more years to work on it.
However, I agree that if, for example, their card, driver, etc. does not fit your needs, do not use or support it.
14) Talking about offests in the BMP file, There is one bit that can be set that causes the blue on the bottom to rotate colors if used as the splash screen when Windows is loading.
15) Hard ware programming is easy. The problem is, some things are tasks everyone wants to do, like draw a line. So a smart person wrote a library to do it. Eventually, for example(good or bad), it became DirectX. Do not turn your nose to Re-use. 16)However, I agree with at least trying to do it yourself at least one time. A valuable sentence indeed. I made three complete 3D engines before I decided to try DirectX or OpenGl. They were a breeze because I knew what they were doing behind the scenes,
17) oh man... watch out for code that uses other libraries. I totally agree on this one, and hence warn against all books with the title "...Guru.." in it.
Hey! XCHG! Thanks for mentioning my name. I am glad someone noticed that little move. OH crap. Now the moderator will close this thread also!
Edited by - taulin on February 9, 2002 3:08:54 PM
quote:Original post by CGameProgrammer
That was in November. Already you''re against C++?
Good catch! So basically he''s been learning C++ for a couple of months, found the answers to all our problems and decided he wants to share his newfound wisdom with the rest of us? How nice of him.
Once there was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time is called the Dark Ages.
Its age-old wisdom that you want to use the right tool for the right job. Its no different with programming languages. Want to make a program that is algorithmically simple but has a complicated GUI? Use VB. Want to create a large, complicated project like a game? Use something like C++; this is the kind of thing object oriented design was designed for. Want to code a small, frequently-used routine and optimize it for a specific platform? Use ASM.
That''s the key.
It was foolish to code Railroad Tycoon entirely in assembly. It is, after all, a simple 2d game. The flexibility and portability that higher-level languages like C++ provide is far more important than speed in this case. The game could have been programmed in VB and it would run fast enough!
That''s the key.
It was foolish to code Railroad Tycoon entirely in assembly. It is, after all, a simple 2d game. The flexibility and portability that higher-level languages like C++ provide is far more important than speed in this case. The game could have been programmed in VB and it would run fast enough!
Heh. Either there are two (one?) experienced trollers here, or just two unlikely moronic posters.
This should have been closed on the first page, IMHO.
This should have been closed on the first page, IMHO.
Author
CGameProgrammer: "That was in November. Already you''re against C++?" - If you actually tried reading my posts, you wouldn''t have asked a question which I''ve answered too many times already. But I''ll do it once more.
Arild Fines: "Good catch! So basically he''s been learning C++ for a couple of months, found the answers to all our problems and decided he wants to share his newfound wisdom with the rest of us? How nice of him." - Actually he''s been learning programming for a couple of years, but felt that something was wrong, so he put his effort into searching for the experts'' opinions on this matter and decided to post what he discovered so that others would read it and benefit from it. And yes it was nice of him. But it wasn''t very nice of some morons to bash his thread just because they are too lazy to learn and they want to make up an excuse for it.
Anonymous Poster: "Heh. Either there are two (one?) experienced trollers here, or just two unlikely moronic posters.
This should have been closed on the first page, IMHO." - Or there are too many experienced anonymous lamers here who should take their stupid comments somewhere else, where they would be considered relevant.
quote:C/C++ is the best high-level language
Arild Fines: "Good catch! So basically he''s been learning C++ for a couple of months, found the answers to all our problems and decided he wants to share his newfound wisdom with the rest of us? How nice of him." - Actually he''s been learning programming for a couple of years, but felt that something was wrong, so he put his effort into searching for the experts'' opinions on this matter and decided to post what he discovered so that others would read it and benefit from it. And yes it was nice of him. But it wasn''t very nice of some morons to bash his thread just because they are too lazy to learn and they want to make up an excuse for it.
Anonymous Poster: "Heh. Either there are two (one?) experienced trollers here, or just two unlikely moronic posters.
This should have been closed on the first page, IMHO." - Or there are too many experienced anonymous lamers here who should take their stupid comments somewhere else, where they would be considered relevant.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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