quote:Original post by Saluk
So yes, for two guys to try to create a mmorpg, they must be crazy idiotic fools. But I think, Mortal, that you have stressed this point enough. If they want to be insane, I don''t think you can convince them otherwise They may surprise us, and if that happens, then so be it. But there isn''t much reason to continue beating the fact that it''s either impossible or near impossible to do into their heads

I’m just trying to do them a service. When you see people about to go off and waste their time and effort on a venture you know from experience is not attainable you do the right thing and try to save them from learning the hard way. Or as in my case you try and they don’t see reason, you give your best appeal and they still don’t see reason. So you figure well ok so they have more ambition then sense but then that’s what world changing is all about. You do your part letting them know what’s ahead of them and then let them have at it.

But then you get a reply post from one of the guys and he’s pretty condescending. Not only that but he tries to imply not only that your assessment of the task is incorrect but also that he is able to succeed where you dare not tread. So you look around the forums to find out just who this guy thinks he is. You know from his rep that he’s kind of an @$$, but then everyone’s an @$$ every now and then. So you start reading through his old posts and you find references to other totally unrealistic games he thinks he can make. Like an MMO sports sim with more features then AC and EQ combined. You find that he is very commandeering and posts as an authority on all topics related to game design. You also find from his posts that he’s fresh out of college. You start wondering about what his credentials are that he is so authoritative. Here is a short list of what you find.

quote:Original post by Oluseyi
A major problem I have with current MMO offerings is the necessity of intense involvement (I am a very casual gamer; I''ve probably finished only three of the games I''ve ever played, and I hardly play most of those I currently own).
This thread 12th post from the top.

I actually advanced somewhat on a DOS-based incarnation around 1996/97, but that''s all history now
This Thread 1st post.

…

For the record, I''ve developed my share of platformers, and even a 2.5D basketball sim (all lost to the lack of backups).

…

For me, all I need to do is develop prototype systems that are playable. They may lack the visual polish of professional products or the robust networking code of a Quake... That''s okay. Others can carry on, either inspired by my successes and educated by my failures

So basically what we have here is another LandFish.

Someone who doesn’t even play games that much, implemented something that might have been a basketball sim if it was ever finished (However in recent times he’s taken to referring to it as a completed project), not only that he hasn’t kept up with development technologies so he doesn’t currently have the ability to even program a windows based game with directX/OpenGL. On top of that he expects to command the respect and admiration of others to a point where they will carry on HIS projects. I guess that’s why he’s not worried about the complexities of actually implementing this system.

So despite being insulted from a self aggrandizing moderator with no basis for his aggrandizement other then the sheer volume of his posts, I will take your advice Saluk and humor them.

PERMANENT DEATH QUERY:

1) Can you imagine yourself enjoying a game which features permanent death?
Actually I could see myself playing an mmorpg with permadeath. But I prefer simple gameplay elements. Simplicity is the father of elegence. I would just have permadeath be permadeath. The goal of the game would be to last as long as possible. To make the game fun the gameplay would have to support combat with mixed parties of higher and lower level characters. So that if a high level died he could still hang out with his friends until he caught up again.

2) Describe what you think the positive effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it solve?
Permadeath would make PvP the most exciting thing to ever happen to you in a game. It allready is breathtaking, your stomach get''s all tied in nots, it''s almost like a real fight. You could make that expirence much more exterem by having your invested time on the line

3) Describe what you think the negative effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it create?
Because when you die you have to start over the player will get very upset everytime they die. There needs to be some incentive for them to want to start from scratch once more. Having offspring and breeding and all that jazz just obfusicates the issue. Players will still be pissed when they die regardless of if they have offspring to inhabit or not.

One solution would to only have permadeat for PvP combat but not PvE. If the game permakills you you blame the game. If another player beats you fair and square your more likely to take your lumps and not complain

4) Can you think of any games that feature permanent death?

Diablo in Hardcore mode, but I never played it.

MORGANE wrote:

quote:Oluseyi it is extremely rude for you to continue attacking other peoples ideas when your "colleague" is trying to change the theme of the post into something more productive.

Not trying to undo my own attempt at trying to lead the thread into a new direction, but I read over Oluseyi''s post and couldn''t find anything even slightl resembling ''attacking other peoples ideas''.

quote:You are clearly not reading all the messages on this discussion so I implore you to not disrespect your "co-conspirator" Silvermyst any more.

I feel like I personally steered the thread down the wrong path with my overly strong attempt at defending the concept. I can''t blame anyone for not reading each and every word of a somewhat heated discussion between two individual posters.

There is no way that Oluseyi disrespected me. Respect is earned. Oluseyi has earned mine by welcoming and answering my endless stream of questions. If anything, I feel like I disrespected him by badly influencing this thread with my endless perm death/PvP talk.

Okay, enough about respect and disrespect, back to the topic at hand...

LET'S CONTINUE!

PERMANENT DEATH QUERY:

1) Can you imagine yourself enjoying a game which features permanent death?

2) Describe what you think the positive effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it solve?

3) Describe what you think the negative effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it create?

4) Can you think of any games that feature permanent death?

RESULTS SO FAR:

1)
-Yes
-Yes


2)
-Levels out level threadmill
-Increases adrenaline rush during PvP due to higher stakes

3)
-severs character attachment
-needs strong incentive for player to start over again

4)
-Underlight
-Diablo Hardcore
-Rogue (and Rogue-like games such as Angband)
-pretty much any (arcade) game without save feature
-certain FPS mods

[edited by - Silvermyst on September 5, 2002 10:23:21 AM]

I don''t see what fresh out of college has to do with anything. Many of us taught ourselves programming before we ever took our first CS course. I''m a junior in college but I''ve been game programming for 6 years.

Also Oluseyi hasn''t been particularly rude or anything, up to this point:

Oluseyi: I''ve tried to be polite, yet honest, throughout this thread. ...So fuck you.

Words fail me.

As for the actual topic of this thread, I think many of us (myself included) are forgetting about the perma part of it. Absolutely none of our ideas has been about permanent death! And I don''t like the egg idea because it''s so non-death-like it''s just an alternate respawning scheme, really.

So I prefer tempdeath - temporary death. Current MMORPGs don''t even have this, as after you die you can pretty much immediately respawn, as far as I understand it (which is not far). My ghost idea involves people who actually die, but can permanently possess someone if that other person willingly sacrifices themselves. That allows for trading for bodies and so on, or people who raise bodies purposely to sell them to high-level dead guys. An MMORPG that encourages more alternate modes of play or more professions is good.

I also like MagicScript''s idea. In his world, people become ghosts too, but they can be sent back into their body and regain life (with some exp loss) if another player performs the ritual to do it. But the player also enchants the items he wears when he dies, although if resurrected and those items are scattered around, he regains his abilities slowly since his essense is spread around.

Although that idea allows for people to become powerful, die, get resurrected by a friend, and repeat (either with the same character or "character farms") to generate high-level equipment. I think his idea can only be balanced if you don''t allow the player to regain his lost abilities until he reclaims his items - as he gets each item back, he can absorb his essense from them, making the item a regular non-magic item. Or, he can choose not to (or have another character wear it) and just wear the magic armor. (Game balance check: Only one person''s spirit can be in an item, and only from one death - you can''t level repeatedly, dying repeatedly, to pump up a weapon to ridiculous power.) You can also give the player absolute knowledge of each of his items'' exact locations in the world (if his spirit resides in the items), so he can hunt down whoever has them (if they were stolen) and reclaim them, to get his abilities back. Of course he can level regularly as well, but absorbing his spirit from his items very quickly helps him level.

This system would actually be a lot like books and movies. In Lord of the Rings, the demon puts his spirit in his ring (without dying, but let''s ignore that point for now). After he dies, he tries to seek out the ring to get his strength back (and its abilities). Also, he always knows where the ring is, he can sense it.

~CGameProgrammer( );