What do we expect of players in an RPG?

Niphty · 2000-06-24T03:09:57

Landfish posed this seemingly innane question in response to my ramblings about his "mental math" posting. It''s a good subject to look at for all. In an RPG, what do we want from the player? What do we expect and what do they expect? How do you feel these questions are answered currently, and are those answers correct? Specifically, talk about the CRPG vs table-top RPG, and MMORPGs. These all have their own methods of including the player. I personally think it''s broken down like this: Tabel-top: The player is the character for all intents and purposes. They add the personality and decide what the character''s actions are. This is considered a more "true" role playing. CRPG: The player takes on more of a strategic outlook in this role playing game. They know about the character, yet they cannot add any personality to them unless the programmer allows multiple "options" to be said in speaking. However, this is merely providing a few very limited options. So perhaps CRPGs are nothing more than done-up strategy and "what would you do?" games, as Landfish put it. MMORPG: Once again, the player is the character. This form moves back to a more traditional table-top viewpoint. Since the game is inhabited by people, you can speak and people will understand you This allows you to once again put a personality to the character. The NPC''s are very limited in dialog.. and thus reflect the computer''s lack of ability to talk to us.. in english So come on, tell your thoughts.. and how you feel about this subject. How could it be improved in the different versions? I look forward to some good responses J

Game Design and Theory Game Design

Started by Niphty June 15, 2000 10:50 PM

34 comments, last by Niphty 23 years, 10 months ago

Paul Cunningham

122

June 20, 2000 03:57 AM

quote:
Side 3: Free personality. This is closer to the older Ultima''s. You are free to make any decision you like, but you are confronted with the consequences in the game. Playing a different personality makes the game experience different. NPC''s react differently depending on what YOU do.
This is the most desirable form , and also the hardest to implement in computer games. On tabletop, it''s easy, with a good DM/GM, but how do you let the computer simulate this?

OPTION 1.
A NPC must be able to judge the player not by their actions but by the characters personality. From here the NPC changes the storyline. Therefore, the storyline changes according to the players personality.

The measure of intelligence is in the question not the answer.

Paul Cunningham

122

June 20, 2000 04:20 AM

quote:Original post by Landfish

(BTW, you asked for a hard time, where''s my "thank you?")

Thankyou :-), and i appreciate the thoughtful reply.

quote:

Note that I said "stories" and not "existing games". Read the Lineas v. Interactive thread if you haven''t already. My case is that there is no way players can interact with a story in any meaningful way, so why fool yourself? Start fooling the player! If they are convinced they are interacting when YOU are actually still in control, you have done your job. Fallout does this.

I tend to think of the books i read when i was a kid, like: "Choose your own adventure", "Pick a Path" and "Twist a Plot". How would you judge these? Is the book fooling the reader/player?

quote:

Ask yourself, was Diablo any less linear than what I''ve described? Nope. But what I''ve described would be a lot less boring to play, I''d bet.

Also, a distinction... I didn''t say "No descision making, no choice path". I said "No emotional control" which is actually pretty trivial when it comes to the choices that govern most diverging paths.

Madkieth, you must also try to discourage the players in some fair way from violating the personality they set up. Otherwise, you have a ridiculous story. If none of this makes sense, I''ll come back and write it later. It''s 4:30 am where I am. I know I forgot something important.

One trick a DM used to do when trying keep PC''s in alignment was to keep notes on the PC''s character as the game evolved. Why not implement a system like this to CRPG''s. The player starts off as a blank sheet and develops personality/character as the game progresses.

Ok, i''ll stop typing and go read that thread now :-)

The measure of intelligence is in the question not the answer.

MadKeithV

992

June 20, 2000 04:34 AM

quote:Original post by Paul Cunningham
One trick a DM used to do when trying keep PC''s in alignment was to keep notes on the PC''s character as the game evolved. Why not implement a system like this to CRPG''s. The player starts off as a blank sheet and develops personality/character as the game progresses.

Alignment, I think, is one of the WORST things ever invented in role-playing games. On one hand, that game tries to advocate free choice, acting, enjoying yourself, and playing a role. But if you feel like doing something out of the ordinary, breaking the mold, you get penalised. This is nonsense.

The same reply goes to you, LandFish..

quote:
Madkieth, you must also try to discourage the players in some fair way from violating the personality they set up. Otherwise, you have a ridiculous story.

1. It''s MadKeith

( enough nitpicking ).
2. I''m not sure what point you are picking up on. If it''s side 1, I agree. If it''s side 3, I strongly disagree. Player freedom is what RPG''s are about. If the player wishes to twist the story in the weirdest of ways, it should be possible. I''m thinking of subterfuge, lying, things like that.
A slightly off-topic example is Tie Fighter. I had played it, having a lot of fun, up to the mission where you had to save the emperor''s skin. At that point, I thought it would be excellent to betray the Empire, and blast him to hell. Of course, the game ended there, which I thought was complete and utter bullcrap, specially because the Empire had ALWAYS been the bad guy, and that sort of behaviour should have at least been expected.

Another would be my old role-playing efforts, rescuing the evil necromancer out of the clutches of some Good PCs unwittingly, and then raiding his castle with the aid of a band of Beholders that I had managed to blackmail. Completely chaotic behaviour, but very in-character.
Would you disallow this kind of thing, because its not heroic, or doesn''t fit the story?

Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

It's only funny 'till someone gets hurt.And then it's just hilarious.Unless it's you.

Arch@on

100

June 20, 2000 06:34 AM

I have to add my holy opinion:

We can''t expect anything from the players, they are dumb, simple and they can''t solve any quests, but still you have to have more advanced quests for better players. What MadKeith told about alignment is almost right, but I think that if it''s well done it wont hurt the game. I liked karma thing in Fallout, but in AD&D that stupid CG, CE, LG, LE and so on was extremely annoying. In Baldur''s Gate when your repultation dropped enough you could get any exp, quests, items or money which SUCKED and still you could have rep 20 and be chaotic evil. Also, there was one stupid thing too, because Drizzt Do''Urden or whatever was classified as Chaotic Good in manua, every goddamn player wanted to be CG. I thought Chaotic Good personality is maniac type guy who can''t decide between Laws and Good acts.

In my next game I''m going to implement system which requires more dialogue writing, but it gives much more to the player. Let me explain my metaform: In dialog if player talks with empire guy and he works for rebellions he sees empire automatically evil, but when he works for empire he sees rebellions as evil dudes, so there isn''t good or bad side, just the side which player sees.

You guys have great ideas but ultimately you have to do what players want. I mean your games are useless if noone plays them. You seem to have great ideas, but I''m not sure would I play them.

Time comes, time goes and I only am.

Ingenu

1,631

June 20, 2000 07:13 AM

...
This is the kind of question that has non real answer.
...
I''m still (and for a year now) thinking about it, I''ve found many solutions but none is perfect.
...
I found that Final Fantasy sells well, so maybe I must follow their example.

What the most important to you, final outcome/success or the way you succeed ?

If it''s the way, it''s what I expected and you''ll be happy with my game, if it''s the outcome...
Sorry try another game.

-* Sounds, music and story makes the difference between good and great games *-

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

Landfish

288

June 20, 2000 04:14 PM

I hate alignments. Keith, you should know how much I hate all of those crappy, out-moded, D&D regulations. *shudder*

I don''t really thing controlling player emotion has any place in a game where that is not the central object. MMOs, for instance, the wqhole point (kindof) is to portray a character, and so the player should be in complete control of such things. If you are trying to do this with single-player games, i might say your efforts are... misguided. The end result will be clumsy and unrewarding to the player.

======"The unexamined life is not worth living."-Socrates"Question everything. Especially Landfish."-Matt

Paul Cunningham

122

June 20, 2000 09:18 PM

So how does a character develop personality that will allow the game to open and close oppurtunities for the player.

I think using systems such a karma achieves little in this respect as it doesn't differ one player from another. The game should keep a more personalised tab on the character. I'm not talking about punishing the player for steping out of character.

If a character does something lawful then something chaotic then the game can judge them as neutral. This then open's up missions in the game for neutral players. If you want lawful good missions then you "role play" a lawful good character and you will get missions for this type of character.

Remember, this has to do with what i said earlier about start of with a blank sheet.

I agree that punishing the player is bad, fact!

The measure of intelligence is in the question not the answer.

Edited by - Paul Cunningham on June 20, 2000 10:21:14 PM

Landfish

288

June 20, 2000 09:30 PM

There are some terms from philosophy that are applicable here. (nothing is JUST a video game...) Objectivism and Subjectivism.

Objectivism is the belief that external forces inherent in the universe govern what is "good'' and what is "evil". Alignment systems were this way. Organized religion is this way. The only problem with this way of thinking *in games* is that the player will be punished if he does not go according to what you have deemed the "right" way.

Subjectivism is the belief that each person defines his or her own "good" and "evil". It states that there is no underlying mathematical law of the universe saying "stealing is bad."

There is no reason that one system would work for all games. They guy from the "Any Christian Artists?" thread will probably want an objectivist system. No problem with that... hey, maybe he knows something I don''t.

As for decision making... choosing a path to travel is not a character-building action. An game character''s reaction to his friend sudden grisly death is a character-building moment that had NOTHING to do with divergent pathways. There is no reason to give players emotional control. It has no gameplay value, and it weakens the story.

======"The unexamined life is not worth living."-Socrates"Question everything. Especially Landfish."-Matt

Nazrix

307

June 21, 2000 01:12 AM

First of all, I agree with the blank sheet concept. Alignment is not a good way to handle it, but I believe if the game is set in a world that has any sort of society then it will have rules. If you break the rules then there are most likely concequences.

I think that good and evil are terms based upon opinion, but if someone steals from me I'm going to think that they are pretty wrong. However, it would be an objective opinion. I don't think it's important or correct for the game to label this player the bad one or the good one, but to label this character the outlaw or this one the peaceful. Also it should be pointed out that in a society of thieves the player may not be seen as wrong. It's all relative which is what I think you were saying, LF.

LF, I understand your point about choosing a path can extend the story beyond what the writer had intended, and cause the story to suffer. A writer dilegantly paces a plot revealing what needs to be revealed to the reader/player when it is time. I just think that interactivity and alteritive paths are more important than that. Maybe I feel that way because I would probably not be the most effective writer. I think that most ppl who are more on the programming side of things sees alternative paths as a really interesting thing because they like to see their code producing all these different directions.

Edited by - Nazrix on June 21, 2000 2:15:39 AM

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi

Landfish

288

June 21, 2000 01:22 AM

It has been said the game writing is "An amalgam of math and storytelling". We can''t leave that second part out. Even if we were to develop the technology to create infinite divergent pathways, we would end up with infinite stories not worth playing.

It might not seem like that now, because of the novelty. You''d play for a while, because it would be so neat... but soon it would grow pointless. No matter what you did, the game would adapt to fit that need, and you would have no sense of purpose, and no direction. The human mind enjoys narratives so much because they provide us with a sense of closure. If you create a truly interactive story, it will simply be playing another life. Just as boring as this one.

There are those who make the arguement, "If you want to be given a story that you can''t change, go read a book." To that I say, "If you want to be part of a story that you can change entirely, go WRITE a book."

======"The unexamined life is not worth living."-Socrates"Question everything. Especially Landfish."-Matt

What do we expect of players in an RPG?

This topic is closed to new replies.

Popular Topics

Recommended Tutorials

What do we expect of players in an RPG?

This topic is closed to new replies.

Popular Topics

Recommended Tutorials

Reticulating splines