quote:Original post by Etnu
I''m just goign to reiterate this one final time for the Java vs. C++ speed debate: Try. It. Yourself. Don''t look at (almost completely biased) "benchmarks" that test one or two things. Compare apples to apples, or keep your opinions to yourself, because until you''ve seen REAL results, it''s a meaningless opinion.

Funny, that''s what one normally says to the other camp.

I thought I had made it abundantly clear that I *am* a Java user. I. Have. Tried. It. Myself. I am voicing my opinions here because they *are* based on REAL results and experience. I''ve posted links to a few games (if you want, I can post more), an unbiased article which collates several "benchmarks" that test various "things" (and even includes a section on taking benchmark results with a grain of salt) among other information. I think you missed something.

But regardless of how many posts anyone makes on this subject, it''s likely that no one will change their views. Java is already used in performance critical applications outside of the game industry, and over the next couple of years more Java games will hit the market. What it boils down to is that those who decide to use Java usually have valid reasons to do so, and if project requirements can be met then all is well. The games industry is usually the last to adopt such radical changes anyway.

I find that for simple project, Java is great because it has alot of things set up in a manner that just works . However, if I''m doing a huge or complicated program, C++ is the way to go. Then again, I''m not that experienced with Java so what do I know.

When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon...

quote:Original post by johnnyBravo
But come on you can''t say java can compete with c++ in the field of making ''proper'' games

Yes, I can

Java being used for a scripting language is HARDLY the same thinig as Java being used "for games".

Instead of just skirting around the issue, lets get to the meat of it:

You will not find a high end 3D engine written in Java.

quote:Original post by Etnu
Java being used for a scripting language is HARDLY the same thinig as Java being used "for games".

That, I assume, was directed at TheFez. He''s a bit lost though. There have been several complete games coded with Java, and there are several bindings to OpenGL.

quote:
Instead of just skirting around the issue, lets get to the meat of it:

You will not find a high end 3D engine written in Java.

I''m not sure what your definition of high-end is. In terms of Java engines developed by professional game shops, I don''t know of any. But that''s not surprising since none of them have adopted Java yet. In terms of Doom 3/Half Life 2/UT 2K5/TSE style engines, I don''t know of any outside of the realm of pro game shops in C++ either. But, there are several open and closed source 3D engines out there.

The engine behind OddLabs'' Tribal Trouble is a beauty. I hope they make it available for licensing after they release their game.

Xith3D was created for Magicosm, which looks sweet.

The guys developing Wurm Online are currently rewriting their client/engine, correcting mistakes they made in the current alpha. When it''s done, it looks like it will be sweet.

Auriga3D has some early screenies up of Quake3 Levels, and should have a project at sourceforge by the end of the summer.

MojoMonkey''s jME is an up-and-coming Eberly-esque engine. I haven''t actually seen it in action, but I''ve heard good things about it.

Bytonic Software created Jake2, a direct port of the q2 sources. When I say ''direct port'' I mean that the code structure within the functions is the same as the q2 source. They only Java-ized where absolutely necessary, and they did it that way for a reason. I believe they (or someone else?) are converting it to optimized Java. I''m very interested in the results once that is completed.

An acquaintance of mine is toying with the idea of porting Torque to Java. He has a Torque license, but wants to use Java because of certain features of his project that C++ doesn''t support without significant effort. If he decides not to do it, I just might take it up and see if GG is interested in it.

I''m know there are more that I''ve forgotten the names/links (which sucks, one of them blew me away - some sort of rbot combat game IIRC), and probably several more that I''m not aware of. The work the Java Games group has been doing behind the scenes should flush some of the out into the open, and the Sun-sponsored Java games contest will shed light on more.

No, those are not high end 3D engines, and they show where Java lacks in the speed department better than I could have myself.

quote:Original post by _the_phantom_
I never said ''java is bad because it enforces class'', I just dont see how its an ''advantage'' to force people into classes, is all.

Strictly speaking, Java doesn''t force you to use classes. You can declare every method static, and do things Turbo Pascal-style from the main method. Granted, your methods still have to be within a global Game class, but that''s just syntax - a namespace, if you like.