My 2 cents:
Motivation and perseverance may lead you everywhere.
(Except if you are really dumb perhaps).
Don't listen to those defeatists people around here. When I started my project with some friends, some people laughed at us. Now that's us who're laughing at them.
And if you have not the recquired competence to accomplish your dream, the time spent for your project will not be lost, you will gain experience in every cases.
[edited by - Khelz on June 21, 2002 10:32:17 AM]
So you want to make an MMORPG?
Most of you guys seem to be ignoring the biggest part of creating/running a MMORPG: actually running the game . KalvinB, you said that you finished GangWars in 10 days, and that it supports 1024 people. Do you actually have a server up and running 24/7 that allows people to log in and play? Are you able to keep lag and hacking to a minimum? I am not trying to be a jerk, and kudos to you if GangWars is online and running smooth! Unfortunately, it is not realistic for any newbie to think that he/she can actually get a MMORPG online, even if they are able to "finish" coding it. A physical server to run a MMORPG from that can handle more than a handful of users will cost multiple thousands of dollars. A full-time internet connection will cost over $1,000 per month. Lastly, taking the example of Everquest, they spent months (years?) perfecting and adding on to the game's code, simply because of an ever-increasing user base and miscellaneous bug maintenance. As the article that llyod linked to described, you will need a team of skilled people maintaining the game 24/7, acting both as Moderators and maintenance programmers.
We are not trying to be "defeatists". We are just trying to warn newbies away from the same path most of us surely took at one time: Wanting to make the best game ever, our own version of a Quake/EverQuest/Command & Conquer-killer. Finishing a simple game first will increase someone's confidence MUCH more than failing to finish a huge one.
You don't learn to drive a car before you learn to walk. It's as simple as that.
[edited by - doctorsixstring on June 21, 2002 10:54:00 AM]
We are not trying to be "defeatists". We are just trying to warn newbies away from the same path most of us surely took at one time: Wanting to make the best game ever, our own version of a Quake/EverQuest/Command & Conquer-killer. Finishing a simple game first will increase someone's confidence MUCH more than failing to finish a huge one.
You don't learn to drive a car before you learn to walk. It's as simple as that.
[edited by - doctorsixstring on June 21, 2002 10:54:00 AM]
I''m just gonna give two examples of successfull amateur MMORPGS (Graphical Mud-style).
www.realmsofkaos.com
-> 200 to 300 players online at the same time, growing community, server running on a T1.
www.nightmist.co.uk
-> 40 to 60 players online, server running on a simple cable modem (that kind of connection runs 24/7 and is accessible to everyone).
Well those games are both free. Okay that''s not a full 3D
everquest but that''s an EVIDENCE that amateurs will not be able to do better in terms of techniques and performances than professional companies. I''ve never seen a newbie claming to do better than professional companies (or they''have to be really stupid). BUT there''s more place for creativity in amateurs projects, that''s why I believe in them, and that''s why I don''t laugh at someone who wants to get into MMORPG programmation.
------
GameDev''er 4 ever.
www.realmsofkaos.com
-> 200 to 300 players online at the same time, growing community, server running on a T1.
www.nightmist.co.uk
-> 40 to 60 players online, server running on a simple cable modem (that kind of connection runs 24/7 and is accessible to everyone).
Well those games are both free. Okay that''s not a full 3D
everquest but that''s an EVIDENCE that amateurs will not be able to do better in terms of techniques and performances than professional companies. I''ve never seen a newbie claming to do better than professional companies (or they''have to be really stupid). BUT there''s more place for creativity in amateurs projects, that''s why I believe in them, and that''s why I don''t laugh at someone who wants to get into MMORPG programmation.
------
GameDev''er 4 ever.
quote:Okay that''s not a full 3D everquest but that''s an EVIDENCE that amateurs will not be able to do better in terms of techniques and performances than professional companies.
I guess it depends on what people define as ''better''. I''m betting that most of the ''better'' evaluation is based on graphics.
quote:BUT there''s more place for creativity in amateurs projects
See, now MY definition of ''better'' usually is based mostly on gameplay, originality and creativity.
What it all boils down to is
a) creating a good game is hard
b) creating an online game is hard
c) creating a multiplayer game is hard
d) creating a good multiplayer online game is very, very hard
...but it can be done.
(especially if graphics can be sacrificed)
I totally agree with you SilverMyst.
It IS hard, and that''s why I love it. If it were too easy it wouldn''t be fun at all
If you think you can handle it, if you take a lot of pleasure from doing it, and if you have the time to do it, then just do it.
And I''m one of those who thinks graphics can (must?) be sacrified for amateur teams.
------
GameDev''er 4 ever.
It IS hard, and that''s why I love it. If it were too easy it wouldn''t be fun at all
If you think you can handle it, if you take a lot of pleasure from doing it, and if you have the time to do it, then just do it.
And I''m one of those who thinks graphics can (must?) be sacrified for amateur teams.
------
GameDev''er 4 ever.
Is there anyone here working on a MMORPG after already having worked on another online game with similar functions but on a much, much smaller scale? (Like ::shameless plug::, a design I''m fleshing out now. 
) I have to ask, because I''m seeing more help wanted posts for MMORPGs than anything else lately. I don''t have anything against the genre, but they seem overly ambitious (but not impossible!) for the hobbyist/amuteur game dev types that hang around these parts. I don''t want to discourage people here from the genre, but I''m currently under the impression that MMO games have QA and customer service issues an order of magnitude beyond any other type of game. Personally, I''d want to know if I could entertain a 4-player simultaneous game before I try my hand at a 400-player game. On the other hand, I could just be the conservative odd-man-out here in wanting to start out simple.
-The Well-Suited Punk-
) I have to ask, because I''m seeing more help wanted posts for MMORPGs than anything else lately. I don''t have anything against the genre, but they seem overly ambitious (but not impossible!) for the hobbyist/amuteur game dev types that hang around these parts. I don''t want to discourage people here from the genre, but I''m currently under the impression that MMO games have QA and customer service issues an order of magnitude beyond any other type of game. Personally, I''d want to know if I could entertain a 4-player simultaneous game before I try my hand at a 400-player game. On the other hand, I could just be the conservative odd-man-out here in wanting to start out simple.-The Well-Suited Punk-
I just want to remind you guys that an amateur is much different than a newbie. An amateur programmer is simply someone who does not program professionally. They can be a beginner or a very advanced programmer. A newbie, on the other hand, is someone who is very new to programming/game design/whatever. When people on this forum say that newbie''s should not attempt to make their first game a MMORPG/Quake-killer/etc., they are not necessarily talking to amateurs . Khelz mentioned two amateur online games. They were not made by newbies, but by amateurs (as Khelz says). Both games have been around for quite a while, and I find it hard to believe that these were the first games ever created by their respective staff.
I just want to remind you how negative you have actually put amateurs.
You say an amateur can be a very skillfull programmer. Sure. but he still is no par for a professional programmer. Would a skillfull amaeteur, mathing the skills of my best professional programmer here, come and want to work for us, he would NOT be a senior developer, but a junior (ok, maybe not for long) and definitly NOT get the same pay, though his skills might match.
Why?
Because programming is only part of the life of a programmer. Projects need t obe managed, schedules need to be maintained. Features need to be cut. Software needs to be planned with maintenance in mind. Certain procedures for multi-developer-development needs to be learned. And finally, a certain experience needs to be gained. And HERE the amateur fails.
An amateur will never have the same experience level than a professional, not in areas that require investments. Simple sample - show me the best amateur web developer who made a CMS (Content Management System). Then have him proove that it scales to 100.000 users. Proove - like in having 100 machines simulating 10000 users each and hammering away. Sure, he might be skillfull, but he has lacked the tools and has never really gained experience in certain areas.
now, specially in MMORPG''s you have two critical parts - the client and the server. On the Client, and amateur might be very skillfull and be on the verge of becoming a professional. After all, we "only" talk of Direct3D as the hardest part, and every amateur can have a top notch graphics card and raise his skills.
On the server we should talk of massive, persistent. Here, sadly, it shows that most professional companies should have spend money for professional developers of commercial software. Here we talk of high availability, databases, massive paralellism, large servers. And NO amateur can have accumulated enough experience here to be more than a Junior developer for at least one year.
I really must laugh (sorry) when I read about Gangwars and 1024 parallel players. Proof, please. Were 500 players EVER connected at the same time, even when they only consisted of test scripts? Is the code using a SELECT approach of programming the sockets of a slow and non-scaling threading approach? A claim that 1024 users can connect just because 1024 sockets can be opened is ridiculous.
I agree, too, on another area - sadly as I must say. At the moment it looks like a TON of MMORPG''s are coming out. Tons of are in development, and the market might be too small. Now, there is ONE thing that needs to be accepted here - you can be successfull if you are DIFFERENT. Better is not going to cut it - if you are better, then you have to be WAY better, and the other companies are still - well - there with a lot of customers and resources. Also, most MMORPG''s right now are EXTREMELY bad in their ruleset. DAOC? CRAP. TOTAL CRAP. I played it a while - at lvl 12 I was unable to be usefull in a group of lvl 15 characters. TOTALLY USELESS. The casual player can not compete with his more hardcore friends at all, not even support them - the class curve is WAY too steep. Well, it is all the game has. Everquest is in the same area - hack and slash, and a totally broken ruleset.
An MMORPG neets to be different. Wonder whether anyone ever thought of making one in old rome, making players part of a larger system. Mixing an economic simulation with strategy, politics and some character building. Give them something to compete on, and give them slaves (for the small manual work). Hm, might be an idea, after all - fighting in the colosseum and so. Leading troops into large battles, or establishing trade routes all over the known world. Getting a place in senate. Hm, oudns not too bad. This would be totally different from the current and primitive experience - which, btw, is SO primitive that it really sucks.
Regards
Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
You say an amateur can be a very skillfull programmer. Sure. but he still is no par for a professional programmer. Would a skillfull amaeteur, mathing the skills of my best professional programmer here, come and want to work for us, he would NOT be a senior developer, but a junior (ok, maybe not for long) and definitly NOT get the same pay, though his skills might match.
Why?
Because programming is only part of the life of a programmer. Projects need t obe managed, schedules need to be maintained. Features need to be cut. Software needs to be planned with maintenance in mind. Certain procedures for multi-developer-development needs to be learned. And finally, a certain experience needs to be gained. And HERE the amateur fails.
An amateur will never have the same experience level than a professional, not in areas that require investments. Simple sample - show me the best amateur web developer who made a CMS (Content Management System). Then have him proove that it scales to 100.000 users. Proove - like in having 100 machines simulating 10000 users each and hammering away. Sure, he might be skillfull, but he has lacked the tools and has never really gained experience in certain areas.
now, specially in MMORPG''s you have two critical parts - the client and the server. On the Client, and amateur might be very skillfull and be on the verge of becoming a professional. After all, we "only" talk of Direct3D as the hardest part, and every amateur can have a top notch graphics card and raise his skills.
On the server we should talk of massive, persistent. Here, sadly, it shows that most professional companies should have spend money for professional developers of commercial software. Here we talk of high availability, databases, massive paralellism, large servers. And NO amateur can have accumulated enough experience here to be more than a Junior developer for at least one year.
I really must laugh (sorry) when I read about Gangwars and 1024 parallel players. Proof, please. Were 500 players EVER connected at the same time, even when they only consisted of test scripts? Is the code using a SELECT approach of programming the sockets of a slow and non-scaling threading approach? A claim that 1024 users can connect just because 1024 sockets can be opened is ridiculous.
I agree, too, on another area - sadly as I must say. At the moment it looks like a TON of MMORPG''s are coming out. Tons of are in development, and the market might be too small. Now, there is ONE thing that needs to be accepted here - you can be successfull if you are DIFFERENT. Better is not going to cut it - if you are better, then you have to be WAY better, and the other companies are still - well - there with a lot of customers and resources. Also, most MMORPG''s right now are EXTREMELY bad in their ruleset. DAOC? CRAP. TOTAL CRAP. I played it a while - at lvl 12 I was unable to be usefull in a group of lvl 15 characters. TOTALLY USELESS. The casual player can not compete with his more hardcore friends at all, not even support them - the class curve is WAY too steep. Well, it is all the game has. Everquest is in the same area - hack and slash, and a totally broken ruleset.
An MMORPG neets to be different. Wonder whether anyone ever thought of making one in old rome, making players part of a larger system. Mixing an economic simulation with strategy, politics and some character building. Give them something to compete on, and give them slaves (for the small manual work). Hm, might be an idea, after all - fighting in the colosseum and so. Leading troops into large battles, or establishing trade routes all over the known world. Getting a place in senate. Hm, oudns not too bad. This would be totally different from the current and primitive experience - which, btw, is SO primitive that it really sucks.
Regards
Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
I think its hard to code an MMO, but its quite possible. You could take Faldon for an example. The main developer was an 14-15 year boy, who finished the first alpha in 1 year or so(he got help from his brother and a friend, mostly in the matter of graphics stuff). it had, bugs, yeah, just like expected for ANY recent released games,it would have new patches like from week to week. But i would say that it worked. The project has know 4 years as i can remember. It had like 120 peoples when i first started playing, i dont know how big it got cause i stoped playing. this is the site:
http://www.illusorystudios.com/faldon/
if (ansi c++ && windows.h)
whooraay!!
else
ok, lets do those cheats.
http://www.illusorystudios.com/faldon/
if (ansi c++ && windows.h)
whooraay!!
else
ok, lets do those cheats.
quote:I really must laugh (sorry) when I read about Gangwars and 1024 parallel players. Proof, please. Were 500 players EVER connected at the same time, even when they only consisted of test scripts? Is the code using a SELECT approach of programming the sockets of a slow and non-scaling threading approach? A claim that 1024 users can connect just because 1024 sockets can be opened is ridiculous.
Well, I''m not really seeing the problem with 1024 simultaneous users. Maybe if you''re using TCP for everything (which NO game programmers use because of the speed issues), but do you really need to? You can''t tell me that every single stupid bit of information requires the reliability (and inherent overhead) of TCP. Quake, UT and Everquest programmers don''t think that TCP is necessary for any but the most vital of information and most of the time not even for that. Of course, I believe that EQ was originally built with TCP, though I think that a lot of their communications has changed over to UDP now.
Use UDP. The solution to network games is NOT TCP. It''s too slow. Reliable UDP is faster in nearly all situations, gives you the same level of reliability that TCP has and requires fewer resources, so long as the programmer knows what he''s doing.
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