Wysardry, you make some good points. However, even if we were talking about a single, well-defined type of game, we would get wildly differing opinions on many issues, even from the group of exactly the type of players the game is intended for.

The bottom line is, you cannot please everyone. Even the best thought out design decision is likely to annoy some potential players. Therefore I am a proponent of highly customizable games, so at least the players with desire and know-how can change the game to closer suit their tastes. Unfortunately, this requires more effort from the devs, and it won't necessarily pay in the long run.

Quote:Original post by Wysardry
I fail to see how a list of likes/dislikes is going to be of any use if it applies to more than one type of game and those adding items are not representative of the target audience.

It is my belief that everyone can contribute something if you let them. It is also my belief that there are a limited number of elements of fun to the set of all possible game types. Many of these elements are shared in common. Some are simply related. Either way, we stand to benefit from the comments of everyone about what they dislike about bad games. I have done the best I can do to limit the demographic by specifically stating in the thread topic the phrase "of past CRPGs." If people come in here and talk about games that are not CRPGs, that's not my fault, nor does it invalidate the value of this thread.

Quote:Original post by Wysardry
Action RPGs and "pure" CRPGs have different features and appeal to different players.

I should certainly hope so. And yet they also appeal to a large group of the same players. You can't generalize here.

Quote:Original post by Wysardry
Removing or adding the same features in both would not make sense.

Perhaps in some cases, but not in most. With two games that are aspects of the same genre, what makes one game not fun can very easily be what's making the other game not fun also. We must be open to the possibilities. Not to mention that our brains give us pattern recognition so that we can do things like ignore what is not related to what we want to find out. ;)

Quote:Original post by Wysardry
Even if you limited the list to one game type, only some of the members of this community are likely to be the type of player you intend to make the game for, as we have very different tastes. The only thing we have in common is that we're all interested in some aspect of game development.

"very different tastes" = diversity = opportunity for perspective expansion = good = !bad. The only players I'm interested in are the ones who are going to give meaningful commentary that contributes to the topic of this thread.

Quote:Original post by Wysardry
You also have to stop to consider why each feature has been included in the past, and the possible effect(s) of removing it.

Is that really a part of game development?

Quote:For example, allowing magic users to carry as much as fighters may well destroy the balance of the system, as the restriction should be there for a reason.

That's exactly the problem, though -- do we really know that it would destroy the balance? How do we know that the only reason this type of stupid thing was done in the first place was not just because somebody thought it would be more realistic, or perhaps because somebody wasn't thinking at all? The only way we can know for sure is to identify and examine the problem. If it will truly upset the game balance, then for the sake of fun, we could scrap it, but we should try to keep it and find some way to restore the balance elsewhere first.

Quote:Original post by Wysardry
CRPG systems are all about balancing advantages with disadvantages, and are basically just a more complex version of the "paper, rock, scissors" game. Arbitrarily deciding that the paper should no longer wrap the rock would just lead to every player choosing the rock.

I seriously doubt that by doing away with simple things like running stamina or encumerance unfairnesses that we are deciding that the paper should no longer wrap the rock. We are just streamlining the fun of the game. It would be different if you decided that mage characters need to be able to wear more armor and have twice as many HP as fighters.

~Ranger Meldon~ M.M. .:

Quote:Original post by EasyRaider
Here's another bad element which applies to games in general: grave, obvious mismatches between story/scripting and gameplay. In scripted sequences, people may get killed from getting their throats slit, yet during gameplay, it's more often than not impossible to kill with a single cut, even if the opponent is unconscious. I can understand that single hit kills are often avoided for gameplay concerns, but when they occur anyway at specific, predetermined points, I really feel cheated. In KotOR, it gets downright ridiculous. Thermal detonators are talked about like they are mini-nukes, capable of obliterating anyone within a sizeable area. But later on, you can have them explode right at your feet for only 15% HP damage. Another example (not RPG) is Red Alert: You get to see some really cool, somewhat realistic video clips, but actual gameplay is totally different. I would have liked the game better if it didn't have those action clips to remind me of just how limited and unrealistic the game is.

A VERY good point. I have always noticed this when it happens in games, and shake my head in stoic amusement every time. We need to stop doing stuff like this in games. Don't show something in a cutscene (pre-rendered or in-game) that can't be done by the player during gameplay. You couldn't do a better job of breaking immersion and creating a feeling of drab scriptedness if you tried! In other words, if you're using cut-scenes for explanatory transition, they should not be cooler than your game.

Quote:Original post by sergeant_x
The classic pnp sci-fi RPG, Traveller, had no experience system, no levels, and no built in mechanic for character 'advancement'. It was by far my favorite RPG and provided years of great play. When I look back, one the biggest reasons the play was so worthwhile was because of the different tone and attitude of the players when 'hero-building' wasn't the point of the game. Players took pride in the accomplishments and experiences of their characters. They had successes, failures, and took an active part in the story.

I'm curious how a game like that worked, and how such a thing could be translated into FPS RPG terms. Care to elaborate and extrapolate?

~Ranger Meldon~ M.M. .:

Quote:Original post by tolaris

Quote:Original post by Wysardry
For example, allowing magic users to carry as much as fighters may well destroy the balance of the system, as the restriction should be there for a reason.

Ok, where in what Wysardry says do you see any mention of magic armor or splash damage, etc? My comment was in direct response to the question of encumberance, not armor, spells, or anything else. If you're going to disagree with me, fine, I have been proven wrong many times, but please at least make sure it directly relates to what I was talking about. Thanks.

Quote:Original post by tolaris
End result? In short time, everyone and their dog was playing a mage, because being anything *but* mage meant being cannon fodder. You don't really get a sign of imbalance more clear than this ;s

Another good example of not fully reading what you're responding to. What did I say at the very end of my post to Wysardry? "It would be different if you decided that mage characters need to be able to wear more armor and have twice as many HP as fighters." Jeez. What surprises me is that I've read your comments on other threads and I liked them. Just please read all of what I say before you decide to disagree with it.

~Ranger Meldon~ M.M. .: