What is worse then big rigs?

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58 comments, last by Ravuya 17 years, 11 months ago
Quote:Original post by The C modest god
[snip]


Let me give you a little bit of friendly advice, which will hopefully help salvage your reputation: Get some experience actually working on large code systems before you try to analyze the problems that large systems face.

It's fairly clear (to me at least) from your posts that you've never really worked on a significantly large project before. By "significantly large" I mean one that you can't write in a few months in your garage.

It's a good practice to try and figure out why you have problems - self-awareness is vital to mastering a skill. But it's also important to know the limits of your own knowledge and experience.


In summary: yes, making large systems reliable is a hard problem. No, the gimmicks you've mentioned are not The Answer. Yes, there are Answers, but they are not typically things you hear about, because the things you hear about are marketing-driven juggernauts more often than they are genuinely revolutionary improvements to software development.

Wielder of the Sacred Wands
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c modest god, try programming a rpg without encountering any bugs. you'll see that it's harder than living in hell without getting burnt.
Wow. I don't even code, and I realize that it's easy for these issues to come up. I've yet to have a single non-graphical bug in Oblivion, for example, which seems pretty damn good. Screwy collision detection in certain cases is acceptable to me in a game of Oblivion's depth. If it was an issue in, say, Tetris, I might be more annoyed. That's not to say I haven't seen debilitating graphical bugs in Oblivion, but those are partly due to my own hardware/software, evey combination of which is certainly not testable.
gsgraham.comSo, no, zebras are not causing hurricanes.
I never said there were no bugs in games.
Its not black and white.
Every game is positioned somwhere between no bugs at all and big rigs on the other hand.
Oblivion is a bit more closer to big rigs then most games.
When a guy's items in his inventory and in containers become non responsive, what do you relate this bug to? some calculation problems? floating point precision problem?
I believe that good design can keep your bug levels to a certain level.
Of course programmers do stuiped mistakes, thats why you need mechanisem to prevent or at least capture these bugs and receive information about them when they happen.
On the worst case, cant they provide the users a way to send their saved games to betsheda to check the bugs?
By the way, I do not care about my reputation of "not working on an epic scale program or being super programmer".
It's all about the wheel.Never blindly trust technoligy.I love my internal organs.Real men don't shower.Quote:Original post by Toolmaker Quote:Original post by The C modest godHow is my improoved signature?It sucks, just like you.
Quote:Original post by The C modest god
On the worst case, cant they provide the users a way to send their saved games to betsheda to check the bugs?


From the little time that I've spent on their forums, I know that the feedback from Bethesda can be pretty minimal, but I bet they know about whatever bug you've found, especially if other people are complaining about it too.

The reason it's not fixed yet is that they have to find out how to fix that error without causing even more errors, and once they do they'll hang onto the changes until they have them all bundled up into a patch. People don't want to download 1 KByte patches daily and the developers don't want to release them that often.

Also, I can fairly confidently guess that your bug is a scripting bug. Some quest programmer probably forgot about some unknown condition that could cause the quest to become unbeatable. If and when a patch comes out, they'll make a change to whatever game data affects this quest to allow it to be beaten under all conditions. Do you really think that your bug requires redesigning a part of the engine itself?! This may not be the result of a purely accidental typo, but I have yet to see any evidence of the game being poorly designed.
TDD FTW

[Formerly "capn_midnight". See some of my projects. Find me on twitter tumblr G+ Github.]

Quote:
What is worse then big rigs?


I know the answer to your question: Some turd who thinks bugs are cased by flaws in UML diagrams and not by a programmer who makes a silly mistake.

In large software projects design flaws can quite often cause bugs. Usually this is because there are multiple programmers working on the code and they make different (and sometimes incorrect) assumptions about how things work. I would argue that having a "correct" algorithm based on incorrect assumptions is a design flaw. Having a well thought out and documented design can help eliminate these types of bugs.

And yes, I have worked on projects with hundreds of developers and millions of lines of code.
You were right, this was a scripting bug, but it is also a design bug as I said.
I jusr read another few people posting about the exact same problem in the exact same mission.
The problem was that an evil NPC had to go and kill the good NPC, however, the NPC was unable to walk up the stairs and get to the good NPC.
So it is a design bug, or an incorrect algorithem.
The solution to this bug is typing in the script command prompt EnablePlayerControls, as I read in that other people post.
You may say it is not a critical bug, but it is not less frustrating then a "eral" bug.
Why a player need to start typing in the script prompt to play the game?
It's all about the wheel.Never blindly trust technoligy.I love my internal organs.Real men don't shower.Quote:Original post by Toolmaker Quote:Original post by The C modest godHow is my improoved signature?It sucks, just like you.
Quote:Original post by The C modest god
You were right, this was a scripting bug, but it is also a design bug as I said.
I jusr read another few people posting about the exact same problem in the exact same mission.
The problem was that an evil NPC had to go and kill the good NPC, however, the NPC was unable to walk up the stairs and get to the good NPC.
So it is a design bug, or an incorrect algorithem.
The solution to this bug is typing in the script command prompt EnablePlayerControls, as I read in that other people post.
You may say it is not a critical bug, but it is not less frustrating then a "eral" bug.
Why a player need to start typing in the script prompt to play the game?


How is that a design bug? The closest thing I could imagine would be if it was an error by the person creating the house and putting nodes for pathfinding (for example if he forgot to create one right in front of the stairs). What is more likely is, is a bug in the pathfinding code where the AI decides that it will be faster to travel that way, but when he can't get through because of some obstacle he doesn't turn around. It could be a thousand things, but at most 1 of those is a design related thing.

And I agree, stuff like this is annoying. I encountered an error where the count of Skingrad wouldn't talk to me.

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