Quote:Original post by Palidine
The decision you are faced with is the classic bird in hand v. 2 birds in bush. 30k is crazy low, in my opinion, for a programming job. It's reasonable for a starting tester (not sure you said what the job was).

You're right I never did say what position it was for, silly me I didn't notice. It's for a programming position, their offical title I think is Junior Software Engineer.

My initial reaction to the pay was the same, but that's roughtly 50k in California money and probably nearly the same on the other coast. If you don't mind me asking, what was your stating pay for you CA job? Do you think what they propose for raises makes up for starting at 30k?

Quote:Original post by Palidine
Try and get the company to wait a couple weeks so you can get in a position where you are at least choosing between a couple places.

My main problem with my situation is that I don't have a "2nd opinion" offer that I can compare this one to. I just felt like asking a company to wait that long wasn't a good thing to do, but then again I've never asked and that's only because they wanted an answer by the end of the week.

Wouldn't asking, "Hey, I'm close to possibly getting an offer from another company, but it might take a couple of weeks, would you mind waiting that long?" sound kinda bad?

Quote:No, you want an actual piece of paper. Signed, and on company letterhead. It should be part of the contract you sign with them.

Echo that.

It is easy (although not good for company morale) for them to say, "Yes he said that, but it wasn't part of the contract", or "That was during negotiations, but don't you remember we both decided against it before the final employment contract?"

Of course, you can always counter it by giving copies to everybody in the office and telling them that they are going back on their word, but that doesn't necessarily give you the money.

It must be an addendum to your employment agreement, signed by the person who hires you.

Quote:Bonuses every now and then on projects completed on time.

I fell for that once also. [grin]

Ignore everything they said about bonuses.

IF you decide that a bonus is something you need, then on the first day ask "What is the exact project, and what exactly must be done to get the bonus? Exactly what is the bonus amount?" An outside observer must be able to look at the facts and tell you exactly what the bonus is going to be.

If they say, "Bonus on completion of module based on quality," you won't see a penny. But you can expect to get paid if you see "Bonus of $xxxx if project is accepted by the publisher on or before April 1st, and an additional $xxx for every full week before April 1st."

Get that in writing, on paper, with a signature also.

The one I fell for was getting a particular set of things fixed. The list was initially 19 items. It grew to nearly 100 items, and still wasn't "completed" even though the initial 19 were done. Although they might be acting in good faith, don't count on the money.

The best advice is to ignore the whole bonus thing. Assume that you will never get a bonus. When a summer job promises an end-of-season bonus, assume a bunch of layoffs two weeks before the end of the season. If a studio promises a bonus when the title is gold, don't be completely surprised to be laid off two weeks before that. Assume that you never heard the word bonus. They should pay you on your merits outright.

Quote:My main problem with my situation is that I don't have a "2nd opinion" offer that I can compare this one to. I just felt like asking a company to wait that long wasn't a good thing to do, but then again I've never asked and that's only because they wanted an answer by the end of the week.

Wouldn't asking, "Hey, I'm close to possibly getting an offer from another company, but it might take a couple of weeks, would you mind waiting that long?" sound kinda bad?

If you are comfortable with the first job offer but don't have a second in hand, accept the first job.

The polite way to handle that situation is to tell your new boss "I know I just accepted this position with you, and I hate to do this to you, but company X just offered me twice the money and a new car. I have enjoyed the time with you, I just have to look out for my own interests." The boss will probably be sympathetic as they help you clean off your desk -- the day you tell them is the your last day of work.

There is nothing wrong with leaving after a few weeks if somebody else offers you more money.

You just need to do it carefully so you don't upset your former employer. Remember that you will probably end up working with some of those people again, so don't offend them.

Quote:My initial reaction to the pay was the same, but that's roughtly 50k in California money and probably nearly the same on the other coast. If you don't mind me asking, what was your stating pay for you CA job? Do you think what they propose for raises makes up for starting at 30k?

Pay is always negotiable for professional positions. A skilled negotiator might work out a 10% bonus during the hiring process.

30K full time works out to be $15/hr.

Although I'm not in California, my past two companies offered about that much to 3rd and 4th year college students with no experience. They got no benefits, no PTO, and get used as slave labor and grunt work. The thing that makes up for it is the fact that the student gets real industry experience, a paycheck, and a company that is willing to schedule work on variable hours with (unpaid) days off for tests and finals.

Well it turns out the grand sounding raises are infact, not grand. It's actually only the first raise is in 6 months with a minimum 10% and from there evaluations are every 6 months and raises are annually and are based off performance. This definitely lessens the deal to me, because it doesn't make up the $30k.

I'm just going to ignore the bonuses since they just seem to be whenever they feel like.

Hmm, now that you mention that 30k is about $15/hr, that's really not that much more then I'm making now, which is roughly $11/hr.

I heard back from the California company and they moved the interview date up from next week to tomorrow! :) I think I'll try and see if I can negotiate the salary with the other job or see if I can extend my "deadline" at least until I have a better picture of the California job.