Game Console SDKs?
Author
Hello,
I'm an indie game developer, and I would like to get my hands on recent consoles, PS3 or XBox360. I'm not going to sue the XNA since it's C#y thingy.
I want the real SDKs commercial developers use, any chance? How much does that cost?
Thanks.
[Edited by - LessBread on January 10, 2007 11:46:59 PM]
Quote:Original post by eSam
I want the real SDKs commercial developers use, any chance? How much does that cost?
If you have multiple game credits already, and you have a team of experienced people, and you have created your own game development company, and you either have a successfully pitched game or an already developed title for porting, then you have a chance at getting a contract that will include the terms of a publishing deal that will get you the SDKs and devkits.
Otherwise, there is zero chance of legally getting them.
But don't worry. You don't need to have experience on them to get in to the industry. Just knowing how to write games on the PC is more than enough.
You get them only by having a developed business relationship with Sony or Microsoft. The devkits will cost you ~$10,000 each, and you'll only get them & the "SDK" if you have an established team (i.e. the majority of your team has already shipped mass market console games).
Basically, what you want to do is contact Sony or Miscrosoft's "Developer Relations" office and start the business negotiations.
If you're a hobby developer and have never published a game, don't bother. They'll just hang up on you.
As a hobbyist, your only next-gen console option is XNA. Sony has no publicly available "SDK" for PS3.
-me
Basically, what you want to do is contact Sony or Miscrosoft's "Developer Relations" office and start the business negotiations.
If you're a hobby developer and have never published a game, don't bother. They'll just hang up on you.
As a hobbyist, your only next-gen console option is XNA. Sony has no publicly available "SDK" for PS3.
-me
Hey there,
I think most of us here are indie game developers here but I thought I should maybe pass on a bit of experience that I'm going through at the moment. Anyone is free to correct misconceptions, misunderstandings, and misstatements. I'm doing this all while at work trying to code, talk to co-workers, etc... My main goal is to be informative about things that I've found out. I'm curious as to what others have found out...so on to my post.
Firstly, I think you will need to be a legal entity of some sort in order to engage with the developer relations department of the respective console makers. All of the application forms I have received thus far have required a business ID or tax ID. I think the purpose for this is to make sure that you aren't going to waste their time as a hobby developer. They make money off of people that make games for their system and not casual programmers. It's not terribly hard to start a company as it mostly entails filing some paper work with your local government and in some cases the federal government. Some examples are, Sole Proprietorship, Partnership (Limited or otherwise), Limited Liability Corporation, or a Corporation. My partner and I are most likely going to move forward with forming a Limited Liability Corporation. We originally were going to make a Limited Partnership but we both wanted to have some sort of asset protection if things went south. I like owning my car! :) We have a meeting with a tax adviser to learn about how to do our taxes with this type of entity. Anyway...do your homework in respect to this. A sole proprietorship is a pretty easy business to start. Just be wary of the additional tax forms you need to fill out.
Secondly, my impression from what I've found reading things here and there is that the developer kits are relatively expensive to purchase. I've seen examples anywhere from 5,000 to 50,000 US dollars. I can't give an accurate numbers as I am not at this level of communication with the console manufacturer I am planning on targeting. I'm not sure if they "loan" out dev kits. Also when you engage with the console manufacturer you sign a contract with them and as far as I know they are pretty involved in the process of getting your game out the door. They'll push hard for you to get your game done. Again, I have engaged at this level yet so as soon as I find out something I'll post it!
Thirdly, if you don't want to form a legal entity and can't afford a developer kit or don't want to get that deep into the process I would suggest the following. Build a system that closely resembles a console platform. The easiest in my opinion is the XBOX 360. The specs are widely available and even Microsoft suggests this. The tool chain for the XBOX360 is probably identical to the tool chain we use for our current Windows based development platforms. Visual Studio, XBOX360 SDK, etc... When writing code or making architectural decisions for your game try to abstract away any platform specific code. Filesystem, memory management, graphics API, etc... Then when you are ready to engage with the publishers, console manufacturers, your time to market isn't that long as you'll only need to code up the low level stuff and not your game specific stuff.
Anyway...take this for what it is worth. I'm no expert and I'm definitely in the same boat. Just take your time and don't get discouraged. You don't need to know how to develop on a console to make games. Just like Frob said... "Just knowing how to write games on the PC is more than enough!"
Good luck to you
[Edited by - ArmitageIII87 on January 11, 2007 6:57:00 PM]
I think most of us here are indie game developers here but I thought I should maybe pass on a bit of experience that I'm going through at the moment. Anyone is free to correct misconceptions, misunderstandings, and misstatements. I'm doing this all while at work trying to code, talk to co-workers, etc... My main goal is to be informative about things that I've found out. I'm curious as to what others have found out...so on to my post.
Firstly, I think you will need to be a legal entity of some sort in order to engage with the developer relations department of the respective console makers. All of the application forms I have received thus far have required a business ID or tax ID. I think the purpose for this is to make sure that you aren't going to waste their time as a hobby developer. They make money off of people that make games for their system and not casual programmers. It's not terribly hard to start a company as it mostly entails filing some paper work with your local government and in some cases the federal government. Some examples are, Sole Proprietorship, Partnership (Limited or otherwise), Limited Liability Corporation, or a Corporation. My partner and I are most likely going to move forward with forming a Limited Liability Corporation. We originally were going to make a Limited Partnership but we both wanted to have some sort of asset protection if things went south. I like owning my car! :) We have a meeting with a tax adviser to learn about how to do our taxes with this type of entity. Anyway...do your homework in respect to this. A sole proprietorship is a pretty easy business to start. Just be wary of the additional tax forms you need to fill out.
Secondly, my impression from what I've found reading things here and there is that the developer kits are relatively expensive to purchase. I've seen examples anywhere from 5,000 to 50,000 US dollars. I can't give an accurate numbers as I am not at this level of communication with the console manufacturer I am planning on targeting. I'm not sure if they "loan" out dev kits. Also when you engage with the console manufacturer you sign a contract with them and as far as I know they are pretty involved in the process of getting your game out the door. They'll push hard for you to get your game done. Again, I have engaged at this level yet so as soon as I find out something I'll post it!
Thirdly, if you don't want to form a legal entity and can't afford a developer kit or don't want to get that deep into the process I would suggest the following. Build a system that closely resembles a console platform. The easiest in my opinion is the XBOX 360. The specs are widely available and even Microsoft suggests this. The tool chain for the XBOX360 is probably identical to the tool chain we use for our current Windows based development platforms. Visual Studio, XBOX360 SDK, etc... When writing code or making architectural decisions for your game try to abstract away any platform specific code. Filesystem, memory management, graphics API, etc... Then when you are ready to engage with the publishers, console manufacturers, your time to market isn't that long as you'll only need to code up the low level stuff and not your game specific stuff.
Anyway...take this for what it is worth. I'm no expert and I'm definitely in the same boat. Just take your time and don't get discouraged. You don't need to know how to develop on a console to make games. Just like Frob said... "Just knowing how to write games on the PC is more than enough!"
Good luck to you
[Edited by - ArmitageIII87 on January 11, 2007 6:57:00 PM]
Author
Thanks guys!
I think I willgo for the XBox360 as it appears much easier to get involved in than the PS3. At least it's DirectX.
I think I willgo for the XBox360 as it appears much easier to get involved in than the PS3. At least it's DirectX.
Quote:Original post by Palidine
As a hobbyist, your only next-gen console option is XNA. Sony has no publicly available "SDK" for PS3.
But IBM does have a SDK for the Cell processor. Of course you are limited. You'd have to be running something like Yellow Dog Linux on your PS3, not the official Sony OS. You don't have access to the GPU, so no 3D acceleration. But you do have access to the Cell. I think there's a non-game business model in Cell expertise, as the chip is appearing in IBM BladeServers, Mercury Cell Accelerator Boards, and some Blu-Ray DVD player. It should find its way into Toshiba HDTVs fairly soon. So I'm currently trying to get this set up. The IBM SDK has a Cell simulator; apparently, you don't even need a Cell to try code out. You just simulate on your PC. Of course performance will suck, but it should be adequate for getting things working and learning the basics of structuring a Cell program.
I'm probably going to work on AI code for the Cell, exactly because my hands are tied for 3D acceleration. Of course, one could spend time implementing software-only 3D renderers for the Cell. But I'm not in need of that kind of project, and other people will probably get to it anyways. I'm more interested in making money as a Cell ASM coder. That could generate the $$$$$ and contacts necessary for a proper Sony SDK license.
A lot of games start off as PC and get ported to console and vice versa. It's not uncommon to see next-gen games with builds in both PC and console.
In other words--it's not THAT much different coding games on console than PC. The hardware-specific stuff should be abstracted out as much as possible, thus changing as little code as possible.
If you had a demo that worked well on PC, you could pitch it to Sony/Microsoft to try and get a deal. My (2nd hand info) understanding is that the Xbox 360 dev kits are about $10,000. Not sure if that includes the XDK, but I would figure so. I've never personally worked on PS3 hardware, so I don't know about that. I'd imagine it's even more expensive.
If you really want to code for console NOW, I'd suggest giving XNA a shot. I've never used it, so I don't really know what it's like. It's pretty much either that or programming in assembly on GBA. I don't think that's what you had in mind, though.
In other words--it's not THAT much different coding games on console than PC. The hardware-specific stuff should be abstracted out as much as possible, thus changing as little code as possible.
If you had a demo that worked well on PC, you could pitch it to Sony/Microsoft to try and get a deal. My (2nd hand info) understanding is that the Xbox 360 dev kits are about $10,000. Not sure if that includes the XDK, but I would figure so. I've never personally worked on PS3 hardware, so I don't know about that. I'd imagine it's even more expensive.
If you really want to code for console NOW, I'd suggest giving XNA a shot. I've never used it, so I don't really know what it's like. It's pretty much either that or programming in assembly on GBA. I don't think that's what you had in mind, though.
Excuse my ignorance, butI just wanted to clear up some confusion I had regarding development for the Xbox360:
1) Is the XNA the only way to go about developing titles for the xbox360? Assuming you manage to sign a license with MS, of course!
2) If 1 is true, does this mean that C# is the only language you can use to develop games on the 360? If not, can we port existing c++ apps over to the xna/360 platform?
1) Is the XNA the only way to go about developing titles for the xbox360? Assuming you manage to sign a license with MS, of course!
2) If 1 is true, does this mean that C# is the only language you can use to develop games on the 360? If not, can we port existing c++ apps over to the xna/360 platform?
If you get an XDK (ie are working on a fully sanctioned title, etc), you generally work in C++. This requires generally involves signing a deal with a publisher who will supply the devkits or signing directly with MS.
If you are approaching it from the hobby side (ie XNA), you are stuck with C# only for now. They don't permit unsafe code (ie calling C++) from XNA when run on the 360. I know MS wants a migration path for hobbyists to full titles, so this may change in time.
If you are approaching it from the hobby side (ie XNA), you are stuck with C# only for now. They don't permit unsafe code (ie calling C++) from XNA when run on the 360. I know MS wants a migration path for hobbyists to full titles, so this may change in time.
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