I never intended to put anyone off programming and I'm sorry if that's the way it appeared.

Skizz

Quote:Original post by Skizz
The major problem with software is that anyone can do it and produce something that works which leads others less technical to think they are capable.

Why? Because it lowers the salaries? Seriously this accessibility is one of the benefits of computer programming. Anyone with a computer can download free tools and get started. It is a good thing that people can get some kind of positive feedback as they learn.

Quote:Original post by Skizz
There is no professional status or accredition that is applied to software developers the way it is done in, say, electronics. As an analogy, I toyed around with electronics as a kid and even made some circuits work but I never got the hang of how a transitor really worked and as such would not really have much chance of getting a job designing electronic circuits

Then I would not hire you to build computer chips for me. But (were I good with electronics - which I'm not) I would not shoot you down for trying to learn the area and suggest you should take up a different pursuit. And I fail to see how professional accreditation is relevant - we're talking about learning programming, not getting a job.

Quote:Original post by Skizz
Software seems to be different in that lots of people think its the job for them but there's no one around to say otherwise. Perhaps if there was a more rigorous professional status to go with the software development job, then we might not have so much buggy software (and no need for stupid EULAs that accept no responsibility for faulty code).

Isn't it the job of the hiring company to say if someone is good enough to work for them? Surely programming ability is not a dichotomy - where you either *can* or *can't* program, but a continuum. For example I consider myself a good enough programmer to work in a generic programmer position working on Desktop apps - and I could probably get a job doing so. I don't think I'm good enough to work for NASA for example, and I'm sure if I applied for a position I would be denied.

So I think we should leave it to companies to evaluate candidates and perform quality assurance - not try to prevent certain people from taking up programming!

Quote:Original post by Skizz
From my own experience, I have worked with very few (i.e. < 10) good developers in my 18 or so years of professional software development (i.e. being paid to do it). Most of the coders I work with, now and in the past, produce poor code and don't spend time refining their skills.
<snip>
This level of coding is the norm!

Those code segments are indeed sad. Have you tried explaining to your co-workers what the better way to code those are?

Quote:Original post by Skizz
The point I'm trying to make, based on personal experience and the comments on several web sites (this being one) is that most potential software development employees really can't do the job and never get any better.

I was arguing that your suggesting that the OP may not be good enough to be a programmer was elitist and wrong. The fact that there are many bad programmers does not contradict this. It just means that programmers should spend more time learning and not become complacent (also some companies should have higher hiring standards).

Quote:Original post by Skizz
There's nothing wrong with elitism, many professions fall into this - doctors, engineers, etc. and it may make things better if there was more of it in software.

The truth hurts1.

It's not elitist to say that somebody does not have the experience or knowledge to perform a certain job.

It is elitist to suggest that certain people do not have the capacity to ever learn to do what you do!

Quote:Original post by Skizz
I never intended to put anyone off programming and I'm sorry if that's the way it appeared.

Quote:Original post by Skizz
Maybe you should work out which set you are in and then re-evaluate your future. You don't want to be the guy that ends up with code appearing here.

I see two possibilities here: (1) You should work on your communication skills. Perhaps re-evaluate if you should be posting on internet forums, since what you said is pretty clearly an indication that you don't think that he should be programming. (2) Or you're a liar who did try to put someone off programming and you're trying to save face now.

Usually given the choice between incompetence and maliciousness I generally regard incompetence as the more likely cause, but in your case I'm willing to make an exception. Of course, in this situation, it's not impossible that both conditions exist.

In any case, I'm moving this thread to For Beginners, where the newbie bashing rules hold. Play nice.

Quote:Original post by ToohrVyk
Yeah, sorry about that [smile]

There's nothing to apologize for. There was no malice in your post, you were right, and you gave constructive advice (which I took by way of buying a couple of books). My ego can take a bit of a bruise :).