Hello, first of all let me introduce my self, trying enter the gaming industry, before I seek advice. I'm writing from the netherlands, recently turned 17 and I'm currently entering 5th year of the 6 years of pre-university education. I have chosen the most dificult profile of the 4 profiles you can choose in Pre-University Education. Its called Nature&Technology. With this profile and Math B (the most advanced type of Math) I can basicly almost enter almost any type of education on Universities. But on the list of Free-Courses when choosing this profile for Pre-university education YEAR 3/6 I could choose 2 free courses and I chose Biology and Economics, and I never chose Computer Sciences or Informatics (we call it: Informatiekunde). I did get Informatics / Computer Science one short year. I then wrote small stuff with notepad and made a website, realy easy stuff, but I totally forgot where it is and how I did it. Basicly I followed instructions of teacher. But that was back then. I had a very good reason for Letting Informatics go to make room for other subjects back then: the university in Amsterdam or any other universities here in Holland didn't have Computer Science or Informatics as a requirement to previous studies (Pre-university Eduction requirements). They did however put Math B in their requirements. So I thought I'll do Economics and Biology with Math B to open up more opportunities in the future. So it opened many many more paths and opportunities. But now that I'm older I know I'm going to enter the gaming industry. Thats my desire and the decision I made. Now I'm going to explain further how I'm trying to achieve this and what kind of plans I'm making for the future. I'm totally new to programming and any other developing on computers for that matter. I recently bought "Absolute Beginner's Guide To C" Second Edition By Greg Perry. This is the best books I could find and its also one of the easiest. I read the first chapter and I downloaded Visual C++ express edition (I think 2008 version) and followed tutorials on the internet setting this up on my computer coming across alot of terms I really didn't have a clue about. Ignoring these terms I followed the steps to several "Hello world" tutorials and I kept failing to execute the program or set up my computer correct, or even compiling programs I wrote. I kept failing and I actually messed up my whole computer playing with all these files and trying to do all those stuff I read on the internet wich I don't even understand for 10%... So I gave up. Now I'm very persistent if I know my desires exactly. So I'm never going to stop now no matter how many times I fail now that I've made the decision. I'm back for more, and I need some advice, even if that means critisize me. Like you need talent for programming and I can never do that unless you give up your whole life and stop showering and get behind ur computer 24/7 because I'm such a nobody in the gamedev at the moment. Maybe thats true because thats my current impression of my self at the moment. This is very dificult, my mindset: its easy to HAVE knowledge, you are really educated when you can acquire knowledge fast. But it is very hard to acquire knowledge about programming stuff. Thats why I find this dificult. And thats where I'm at now, totally a beginner in the developement and progamming world. With all these help around and still I can't acquire knowledge about programming. But I could use some advice here from people to help me make more organized plans to achieve these stuff. I recently came across a website that blew my mind away. It is the perfect university education I seeked for so long. http://www.computersciencegames.com Charles Sturt University in Australia (Bathurst) teaching Bachelor Computer Sciences (games technology) 4 years. In The Netherlands I've always found "Bachelor: Informatics" followed by "Master: Computer Sciences" with the requirements of Math B to enter the bachelor as I already mentioned. But those don't really focus on entering the gaming industry and the one from Charles Sturt University DOES! And I think its the only one on the planet or not? Anyway I'm going to contact that university about diffrence between distance education (by computer) or just staying in their Halls of Residence and attend their seminars for 4 years (Australia is on the other side of the planet! but its beautiful). Also about the diffrence between regular bachelor computer sciences and bachelor computer sciences (games technology). Unless any of you guys can answer those. Now I wonder is it really stupid that I have no background at all about computer sciences and then trying to enter this education without even the knowledge about the inside on my own computer, I mean I know simple stuff like videocards, processors etc. But I'm not that fimiliar with them compared to many friends I know who DO. When they talk I'm like wtf are you talking about? I never had time to get into all this deeper, but I'll make time now. Do you think I should try request from my school to attend Informatics my last 2 years ANYWAY? So that I atleast have a little bit of background? Or should I just independant learn stuff my self, is that ok? Anyone here ever attended Computer Sciences know how much basic knowledge is actually required besides the math? How hard would it be for someone who has compeleted pre-university education but has no clue about anything that is connected with computers? I mean it says "no requirements for Informatics/computer sciences as previous studies to enter bachelor computer sciences... I don't know about the Charles Sturt University tho. the requirements there may be higher. I'm going to write another topic (Absolute beginner to C Q's) about the present instead of the fututre where I'm having particular problems about programming as an absolute beginner, thanks for reading and any advice given is very appreciated.

Quote:Original post by Tom Sloper
Are you sure programming is the best path for your personality and talents?
If you are intent on pursuing programming because you think you have to, then maybe you should look at all the other types of occupations in the video game industry and rethink.

I'm currently in a position where I can become almost everything, I don't lack talent in any areas of my life besides my Raptor brain (the one that does all the actions like fighting and sports). I can be artistic, philosophical, logical, emotional, psyochological, I've worked on all those aspects and I'll keep working on them all my life besides my sport skills has gone lower, I used to be able to footbal basketbal and peform gymnastics like a pro making airflips & stuff, but the value of those skills decreased as I become older, besides dancing value is increasing like Salsa but those aren't real sports? But I do push my limits alot to see what I do like and what I don't like. Thats how I get to know my self better all the time. So thats me... And no matter how many bad things I've heard about programmers it still stays an attractive profession in my eyes. Just the amount of possibilities and advanced jobs you can have as a programmer. I don't care about how programmers get critisized because I for one am not afraid of critics. I can still have a mentally+physical healthy life and become a programmer. I don't buy newest versions of cars even tho the older version of the same car is better just because I should be afraid of critics I even appreciate critics if they are valid. I'm also a person that likes to develop taste in everything like, cars, games, women, movies, food. Eventually you will know what you like and don't like. And I know that I like classic cars more then modern ones.
I've thought about becoming a:
-psychologist, I find the way that humans work outside their natural world(civilization) very interesting. How certain character traits have been blend in from barbarism to civilization. How the interaction between the 2 genders is still so very animal-like. How humor has become such an important factor in our daily lives even tho you didn't require humor to escape from a crocodile or a lion in our evolution process. Turns out that evolution-psychology was alot more for me. But still I woulden't like to make a profession out of it.
-neurologist, my dream was to create a company called Artificial Dreams that would overrun the entertainment industry since I know alot about the psychology behind entertainment like games and movies. Movies and games is really hypnosis, and hypnosis is really almost like dreaming and dreaming can be really entertaining for me besides that you forget them quick as with games and movies but then less severe since the memory is still active and hypnosis here isn't very deep, but what entertainers movie and game developers are trying to achieve is suck you in the game by creating stuff that gets your attention and creating the vibe like sound music compositions etc. This is perspective of my deep thinking philosophical mind, and hypnosis is all around you btw, its just that you mind has this defence mechanism that doesn't make you as vaulnerable to hypnosis from therapy which you would actually cooperate with the hypnotist to gain acces to you. I would actually lead this company with a master mind group of people working in harmony and me being leader with sympathy rather then dictatorship. And neurology to master the details and do my part of the job a 100%.
-astronomer well you could figure out your self how big the universe is, and now I would blow your mind if I talk about time travel and parallel universes. now this will always be a passion of mine but getting a profession that requires me to find new energy resources trough researsch I'm not interested in. I can always read the newest stuff about this subject and watch documentaries without working my but of on phsysics theories. Because I know that the job isn't important, its the desire to want to achieve something that gets you there, keep the desire in mind, nurish it, picture it everyday and you will achieve with persistence, organized planning and desire being your motivation. Like the guy trying to time travel to get back to his dad who passed away. A dead father being the motivation and the guy is close to manipulating the energy fields or something to create a worm hole. Seriously what people without talent or education have achieved trough motivation and persistence would blow your mind away. I know I will succeed on this kind of subjects alot since I have talent for it, but I would never have enough motivation to get to the top.
-physicist (this is one of my biggest talent, physics I letterly dominated this subject on school always with little learning, I compare my younger years to that of Einstein and I admired him alot. I grew up thinking the way a physicist does.

Now all this I don't care. I know sometimes being succesful is making other people do stuff, since that would be more succesful then trying everything on your own. I don't require to know everything, since I know with an academic degree I can acquire knowledge everywhere. For a master mind group to cooperate in perfect harmony thats another thing. Thats how I will achieve stuff in my life. Wether I'm a lead gamedeveloper, band leader, Professor, founder of Artificial Dreams, what ever kind of leading you can imagine. I know that becoming a good leader is learning and gaining knowledge from a good leader as a good FOLLOWER. I think I will start as a follower in the game developement world by becoming a programmer. Not just to enter the game developement world easily but also because being a programmer just sounds attractive over all. The money and easy jobs everywhere. I don't mind working behind computers for long hours at all. I prefer it actually. I love working with in huge teams from all cultures all over the world like I always imagined game developers did. But writing programs like puzzling sounds fun. I think I can even enjoy the process of debugging since I'm a very patient guy, and trying out diffrent techniques which suits me best to write making as little bugs as possible. And eventually I think even those hardware that get in touch with your senses (Artificial Dreams) in the future will require smell, sight, sound programmers. Programming is so wide. The demand for programmers will gorw only more and more. So the money I will earn is very good. And I'm also good at math and I enjoy the challenge of it. The only thing that would stop me really is if I don't have any talent whatsoever on this part, but I know I can develop talent for it anyway. But the impression I have from computer scientist or informatics thinking is how they annoy so much when people can't think logical and when they're trying to teach people stuff so simple and logical yet they can not comprehend. I found this very funny idd and I was the favorite student of that guy. I can be VERY logical. I can like annoy people by the amount of logical I can have, I can even shut down my emotions if I want to xD comes with the hard work in school. I don't think I'll have a hard time on the math side of programming, logical thinking, patience, anti-stress. Really I even have clothes of the brand "Relakz" ...when people get stressed and man or in a argues I'm always the one thats relax and puts more effort into solving the problems instead of screaming them out loud. I can always see problems easy, and I like problem solving alot. And the last thing is I can work in very long hours without breaks and without stressing alot, since I've learned that by
working my way 3 levels of normal school education up from lower secondary professional education to higher general secondary education to pre-university education(atheneum). And I was in year 3/6 when I reached atheneum, so in 1 lvl increased every single year. I've never really thought about it alot but infact this says alot more about me then I think, since people comment on it alot. And I can really learn programming if the knowledge is organized for me to gain and I don't have to search for it all the time trying to organize information my self, I hope that teaching dificult stuff like programming is being taught well and organized step by step in Computer Sciences.


So what do you think now I've described my self a little more detailed. I can picture my self working for one of the companies who have brought me so much entertainment of great value. Me being part of that is a great honor. They will be role models of my future gaming developement, but I would like to programm stuff for them once in my life. And btw thank you alot for the comment Tom sloper, I'm getting to the rest of you commenters now after this reply Sorry if for my writing skills, its kinda late here in netherlands and I'm writing as fast as I can, hehe. I'm sure you get it.

Quote:Original post by Joshuad
I suppose I can give you a few different responses to this. For one, as Tom said, there are many routes into game development, and programming isn't the only one. But you should also keep in mind how quick career plans can change, especially someone of your age. If you are 17, and love computers and technology and have a passion for making things work, and also have a passion for video games, than it is definitely a career path you should look into taking. If you are 17 and just like the idea of creating games because you like playing them, it might not be enough to justify wanting to go through that much trouble to procure a position doing this.

If you are still interested, I would suggest you not worry yourself too much with the way computers work AT THIS MOMENT. If you are looking to get into college for computer science, they require you to take classes that teach the basics. Technology isn't quite a talent that you are just born with, you have to learn it, and at the college level they don't expect you to know everything. That's what teachers are for, to teach you. I'm in college right now, and am lucky that I have been considered as an advanced user since I was 13 and built my first computer. Having the hardware knowledge thus far has helped me absolutely none, and it won't help me until I start doing more low level programming that actually affects the hardware, which unless you are looking into engine programming, you will probably never have to look into.

Well then my reply to Tom sloper could also be used to your comment :) And its good to know that universities organize knowledge for me aswell and that I can LEARN programming. Because thats a thing I'm good at luckily. Otherwise I can still develop talent tho, I've done it alot. So what do you think now? And ty for the reply Joshuad, 13? wow you must be really skilled by now.

Quote:Original post by Captain P

Quote:Original post by twintwix
Hello, first of all let me introduce my self, trying enter the gaming industry, before I seek advice. I'm writing from the netherlands, recently turned 17 and I'm currently entering 5th year of the 6 years of pre-university education. I have chosen the most dificult profile of the 4 profiles you can choose in Pre-University Education. Its called Nature&Technology. With this profile and Math B (the most advanced type of Math) I can basicly almost enter almost any type of education on Universities.

So you're doing gymnasium or atheneum then?

Quote:But on the list of Free-Courses when choosing this profile for Pre-university education YEAR 3/6 I could choose 2 free courses and I chose Biology and Economics, and I never chose Computer Sciences or Informatics (we call it: Informatiekunde). I did get Informatics / Computer Science one short year. I then wrote small stuff with notepad and made a website, realy easy stuff, but I totally forgot where it is and how I did it. Basicly I followed instructions of teacher. But that was back then.

The informatica I had on highschool was a joke. Half a year of fiddling with QBasic if I remember correctly. For the most part I've been doing level-design in my spare time, and some (ugly, but gradually improving) websites. During my last year I decided I wanted to get a headstart on programming, so I did a project in C++ for school, swamping some programmer friends with questions. Hehe. Turned out that it's easy to learn bad habits, as I found out later, but oh well, it was interesting and challenging, and I did get some experience early on. I should note that those years of level-design payed off, too - they gave me valuable insight on game-development processes.

Quote:I'm totally new to programming and any other developing on computers for that matter. I recently bought "Absolute Beginner's Guide To C" Second Edition By Greg Perry. This is the best books I could find and its also one of the easiest. I read the first chapter and I downloaded Visual C++ express edition (I think 2008 version) and followed tutorials on the internet setting this up on my computer coming across alot of terms I really didn't have a clue about. Ignoring these terms I followed the steps to several "Hello world" tutorials and I kept failing to execute the program or set up my computer correct, or even compiling programs I wrote. I kept failing and I actually messed up my whole computer playing with all these files and trying to do all those stuff I read on the internet wich I don't even understand for 10%... So I gave up. Now I'm very persistent if I know my desires exactly. So I'm never going to stop now no matter how many times I fail now that I've made the decision.

C is an older, lower level language. Still useful in some areas, but not really one of the most beginner-friendly languages. I'd suggest Python for a first language. There's less low-level details that you need to worry about, which leaves you with more time to learn how to program.

Quote:This is very dificult, my mindset: its easy to HAVE knowledge, you are really educated when you can acquire knowledge fast. But it is very hard to acquire knowledge about programming stuff. Thats why I find this dificult. And thats where I'm at now, totally a beginner in the developement and progamming world. With all these help around and still I can't acquire knowledge about programming.

Don't look at it like that. You've got opportunities to learn - embrace and enjoy them. :)

Quote:Charles Sturt University in Australia (Bathurst) teaching Bachelor Computer Sciences (games technology) 4 years. In The Netherlands I've always found "Bachelor: Informatics" followed by "Master: Computer Sciences" with the requirements of Math B to enter the bachelor as I already mentioned. But those don't really focus on entering the gaming industry and the one from Charles Sturt University DOES! And I think its the only one on the planet or not?

It's certainly not the only one. And it's not a requirement to 'get into the industry' either. Maybe it's just me being skeptical of game-development courses, but I'd say actually being a good programmer is more important than whether or not your education was particularly game-oriented. I've gotten my bachelor informatics and I'm continually striving to become better at what I do. Just make sure you get to be a competent programmer. That's what you want to do, so you'd better do a good job at it.

That, or you can pick another route, as Tom Sloper and Joshuad already mentioned.

Ye athenuem since I wasn't aloud to attend greece/latin lessons, because my previous schools never teached them. It would be too much to catch up with those guys after 3 years or so I think.

Python? Never heard of it. WoW! I always thought to focus on C or C++ since its what game devs use alot. And the Absolute Beginners guid to C from Greg Perry actually treats its readers as if they are old people who never touched a computer, so I thought it would be beginner friendly.

And about the university, I've read so much about it and it seems that it would give me many advantages to just follow that computer sciences (games technology) in particular, because its really no disadvantage in finding jobs compared to a regular programmer who attend regular computer sciences education, it covers all the basics but the system is very great in charles sturt university, they work on your employement as well as being just a good programmer. Like get you jobs in companies with their many connections, I can even give them some companies I would have in mind they will even write those companies FOR me. I don't really know how useful that is but sounds unique and exclusive. And then after some time ( I forgot the whole system) your teacher will come over talk with you and your employer and then with you in private again to ensure everything is in your likings in that environment. Even the costs for living in your new home after travelling to your new employer abroad is figured out. The succes rate at Charles Sturt University is very high and I think they can help me step with the right foot into the new world of game dev. And they also mentioned that like 100% of the people there remain in those companies they got in and are offered a full-time job with a wage right after the "work placement" period is over. The only diffrence in Charles Sturt university is that they have industry placement, and that they actually put alot of stuff you learn into practice. Thats priceless stuff you can't just learn I thought. But is this actually all useless stuff when it comes to programming? Its all about your skills and a great portifolio which shows great demo's or creatings of you as a programmer, and really all you need is experience or getting involved in programming for several "good" games before you will be accepted in other companies? Really does a programmer not even require any skills into offering his own services besides proof?

Let me quote a Student testimonial (Matthew Pettifer: lead programmer at Electronic Arts): "The games course at CSU provided me with the core skills I use daily in the developement of our latest game: Dead Space. Being a game play programmer, I need a high level of knowledge in both object oriented programming and human computer interaction. Thanks to the games tech course, I was able to gain employment as soon as I finished my degree." I mean EA? Wow! I know that EA isn't really what they used to be, but still they are succesful now. I think they can dominate with all the exclusives they would have if they created their own Console, EA 360 xD I know that EA employs many programmers and is a big part of the gaming industry. I still remember playing need for speed: road challenge or other NFS series on playstation with my bro when I was 7 years old and seeing that EA brand on the screen, succes on its early ages. they are the second largest company in the industry but NFS sux... what money does to you ^^ they should stay loyal. Loyalty to consumers is very important to me, I think it would be a honor to work with those game designers that make brilliant games like from Remedy, Alan Awake and Max Payne. Tho Max payne 3 wont be from those same dev's... anyways,

Captian P, ty very much, for your comment. I mean wow tt gave me alot of new insight! :) really great stuff.

[Edited by - twintwix on June 18, 2009 8:24:59 PM]

Quote:Original post by Hodgman

Quote:Original post by twintwix
I recently came across a website that blew my mind away. It is the perfect university education I seeked for so long.

http://www.computersciencegames.com

Charles Sturt University in Australia (Bathurst) teaching Bachelor Computer Sciences (games technology) 4 years. In The Netherlands I've always found "Bachelor: Informatics" followed by "Master: Computer Sciences" with the requirements of Math B to enter the bachelor as I already mentioned. But those don't really focus on entering the gaming industry and the one from Charles Sturt University DOES!

I was born, raised and educated in Bathurst, Australia ;)
I attended Charles Sturt doing a Bachelor of Information Technology, but I had lots of friends (and family) that did the "Computer Science (games technology)" course.

None of the people that teach that course have ever worked in the games industry.

Take a look at this page, and take note that they're not showing any students who have actually gotten jobs in the industry either! One guy is doing an internship at EA. (To be fair, I know of a few students who have gotten full-time jobs at companies like Transmission and EA, but they're not advertised on that portfolio page)

Any student in that course that has gotten somewhere, has done so because of their own talents and passion, not because of the university.
If you have the same passion for game programming, then you can do any computer-science degree at any university and succeed. You've just got to push yourself and be willing to learn on your own.

That said, Bathurst is a nice little town, but very hot in summer and very cold in winter ;)

haha you make me want to go live in Australia! And I really appreciate your comment alot! This is not something the university them self would admit that easily, I know ofcourse that succes doesn't lie within the school itself, scince I've been to 5 schools in my life, even a private one, and the diffrence is that some teachers don't teach you to teach your self and some do. Ye rly I said teach to teach your self xD ...I've figured those stuff out too. But you've just gave me that boost of confidence I required. ty :)
I've got another question then. You and Captain P saying I've just got the be the best programmer I can be, so I was thinking about the master degree. I've really only looked into universities here in Netherlands besides CSU in Australia ^^
Do you know wether it would be useful to get that Computer Science Master degree then? to become an even more competent programmer like you and Captain P suggest me to. Don't know wether something like a Masters degree even exits outside my country or how the system works there ^^ I'm sure it does. So isn't it possible to follow a master Computer Science in games technology? That would be awesome. but what about the master in general, is it of any use in the future career of a programmer? I have this impression of you that you know stuff like that :P Not sure tho. thanks tho, your comment really had a impact there... wow these forums are even more useful then I could have ever imagined! And its a honor to write someone who grew up in australia, one of my favorite countries and actually got education in CSU, hear its famous for its community :-)

I'd just like to throw in a little back-up Hodgeman's statement about the industry: from what I've seen in a lot of interviews and heard across the board, most people in the industry weren't formally trained in Game Design. Any general Computer Science degree should do, and would probably be recommended as they likely train you to adhere to standards and focus on more practical applications in business and science. Game Development is something you can aspire to on the side, as there plenty of resources online (look here!) As Hodgeman also said, it shows that you've got the motivation to learn and take on tasks yourself; it shows you're a go-getter.