RPG Design: Weapon System

Well, if you're going for realism, then "upgrading" guns doesn't really work - you can't do that in real-life.

I would suggest a simple mechanism for displaying more powerful guns: the more expensive it is, the more powerful (or otherwise "better") it is. If you see a pistol in the shop for $100, and another for $200, then obviously the $200 one is better.

1: What type of battle system are you using, a good middle ground would be if you could upgrade but also had trade offs but this would demand more stats per weapon than just power.
2: I'm pretty sure a golden sword would but just as laughable in real life.
3: Does it have to be current day modern? If you had a tech level of match, flint and wheel lock muskets their could be more room for upgrades.

@Codeka: The thing about that option is that I want it to be "recognizable" to the player that this gun is powerful by name and association of creating it alone. If someone buys a Beretta and a Desert Eagle, and then suddenly doesn't know which one is more powerful (unless they go to equip it), it sort of causes the player to feel a bit detached and as if they need to know the names of these guns. I was thinking of doing that option: just do your option like Shin Megami Tensei did on the Snes and just buy stronger guns. I can see the argument that not many people "care" for the names of their items, just what stats come with them. But I want upgradability so that a player can add special features to their weapons (such as status effects on attack or raising a stat.)

@Kaze:

1) I'm still deciding between a turn based system or an ATB system.

2) I sorta agree. My only problem is both terminology and adding some customizability to the game.

3) The game is set in a contemporary world in the "city of organized crime," so it sorta demands real world applications.

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Original post by Zido_Z If someone buys a Beretta and a Desert Eagle, and then suddenly doesn't know which one is more powerful (unless they go to equip it), it sort of causes the player to feel a bit detached and as if they need to know the names of these guns.

I think you will be hard put to find a gamer (even one who doesn't like FPS), who doesn't know that a Desert Eagle blows a Beretta away [wink]

However, I would question the wisdom of your 'bigger is better' weapon balance philosophy. Sure, the Desert Eagle packs a lot more punch, but both weapons are lethal, and the Beretta is a lot easier to conceal. Shouldn't 'better' guns in your game have drawbacks as well as benefits?

You will be surprised by the people who don't know their guns and we shouldn't punish them for that. I also thought of putting like an informative catalog in the game for the player to look through and get general information on the guns.

Well, there is three types of guns in the game: pistols, two-handed guns, and heavy weapons. Pistols can be used in one hand, have good accuracy and even gives a speed increase. But they are the weakest in strength. Two handed weapons are a a balance of this, but stronger. And heavy weapons are the strongest class of guns, but give both a a drop in accuracy and a drop in speed. As far as the battle system goes, things such as number of bullets, reload speeds, and rate of fire don't apply.

If I can use an assault rifle, why can't I use an SMG?

If I know how to use a machine gun, why haven't I learned to use a pistol?

Now, there ARE a limited number of upgrades you can do to real weapons. Better slides, higher quality parts, modifications to enable faster or slower rates of fire, better quality barrels, better/different grips.

And then of course are your rails and add on parts. Scopes or other sights, night vision systems, lasers, etc.

Pistols can be used by any character who is capable of using one. But as the class goes up, only certain characters who have a backstory of gun training will be able to use them. In addition, I may use a SMG as a pistol class with a bit more power and accuracy. But I'll need to put some drawback to it.

As for the gun upgrades, I could do it as realistic as that. So for example, getting the barrel increased in length increases accuracy, or getting a grenade launcher on an assault rifle adds the addition of using an attack-all weapons in unison with the gun itself. But this is an RPG, so I will have to tie physical upgrades with more "rpg mechanics upgrades." For example, if I make a gun that can put someone to sleep, it's only because the gun now fires tranqualizers.

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Original post by Talroth Now, there ARE a limited number of upgrades you can do to real weapons. Better slides, higher quality parts, modifications to enable faster or slower rates of fire, better quality barrels, better/different grips. And then of course are your rails and add on parts. Scopes or other sights, night vision systems, lasers, etc.

True. My point was that you can't "upgrade" a Beretta to a Desert Eagle or something like that.

Still, if you can fit it into the lore, then there's nothing wrong with it of course.

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Original post by Codeka Quote: Original post by Talroth Now, there ARE a limited number of upgrades you can do to real weapons. Better slides, higher quality parts, modifications to enable faster or slower rates of fire, better quality barrels, better/different grips. And then of course are your rails and add on parts. Scopes or other sights, night vision systems, lasers, etc. True. My point was that you can't "upgrade" a Beretta to a Desert Eagle or something like that. Still, if you can fit it into the lore, then there's nothing wrong with it of course.

There's actually a few guns that are modular enough to change out the caliber (FN SCAR comes to mind). The Desert Eagle, to pick a relevant example has kits available to change it from .357 Magnum, .45 Magnum, or the usual .50 Action Express. It even has different barrel lengths that you can change... though this is an exception rather than a rule. But it is not unrealistic to have upgradeable guns.

Any two machines, when compared, are not exactly alike. Take cars for instance - two Fords made at different factories will have different lifespans on certain parts, because the manufacturers may use slightly different procedures, have different workers, and may calibrate their machines even slightly differently. Some of these differences may lead to faults, which degrades the performance/lifespan/ect of these parts. A good manufacturer might make the difference between a gun with a barrel that doesn't quite fit, thus throwing off your aim a slight amount and one with a barrel that's actually more efficient than the original design. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's believable.

So rather than have "Silver Pistol" give the guns a fancy name like AP-2X9, and a set of manufacturers that the player can become familiar with. Gausscorp might make better pistols than rifles, so a Gausscorp AP-2X9 would be better than a Microtech AP-2X9. Similarly, Microtech might make better rifles, so a Michrotech MR-92D would outperform a Gausscorp MR-92D. Alternatively, perhaps Gausscorp barrels are longer lasting, but tend to jam more than the standard issue gun, whereas Microtech barrels are more accurate but wear out much more quickly. If these manufacturers are in-game entities, or even mentioned as an aside (I could even see a NPC muttering "Damn GI Gausscorp rifle, thing always jams..."), it would instill at least a slight sense of realism and continuity.

"Upgrading" may simply be "retooling" at a better manufacturer. In fact, you may be able to play off selective upgrades as making a hybrid, using the Gausscorp barrel, and the Microtech stalk or some such mix. In that case, just call it a AP-2X9 Custom, rather like how some guns are customized by people in reality.

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Original post by Zido_Z Pistols can be used by any character who is capable of using one. But as the class goes up, only certain characters who have a backstory of gun training will be able to use them. In addition, I may use a SMG as a pistol class with a bit more power and accuracy. But I'll need to put some drawback to it.

I'm just saying that guns aren't all that hard to use. Which is the reason why we now see warfare consisting of shooting each other, rather than guys running around trying to shank each other with swords.

I'll be honest, the complete blocking of options based on class annoys me. "I'm sorry, you can't use that nearly identical weapon to the one you already are an expert with, because it is just a little different than what you use." doesn't make sense and is a pain.

The better option is to allow the characters to mold and shape things as they want. If I always use pistols, I'm going to be good with pistols, and I'm going to do best with the pistol I use most often. I'm going to be able to shoot faster for the same accuracy, or shoot more accurately at the same speed. I'm going to bring the weapon to bare on target faster, I'm going to reload faster, I'm not going to screw up and leave the safety in the wrong setting, I'm going to easily remember how many rounds are in the weapon and be able to do perfect tactical reloads.

If I've always use an M16 rifle, I'm going to switch to the M4 without complaint and with no drawbacks. (they are weapons in the same 'family' and modifications of the same base weapon.) Everything on them is basically the same, holding one feels like a slightly resized version of the other, but it isn't going to throw off my reloading skill. However if I suddenly pick up an AK74, then I'm going to be slower with reloading it.

However the basics aren't hard to learn. If you know how to fire and aim a pistol, you can pick up an AK74 and with a minute or two of looking at the weapon you're going to be able to fire it. They're not rocket science after all. (They're basic ballistic weapons, no rockets involved) However I'm going to have to use it for several hours and hundreds of rounds before I get consistently good at reloading it. It will take me a handful of rounds before I can get close to a near target for every shot, but it is going to take me thousands of rounds with my first automatic rifle before I'm able to put rounds on target, at range, and in a consistent fashion. The next rifle I pick up is going to take me far fewer rounds, but to be an expert marksman is going to take a long, long time with a given weapon.


I easily accept that the sniper class can pick up their trusty .50cal bolt action rifle and pick off targets at 1000m with ease, while some other class will struggle to make the same shot at 300m. What I don't accept is that my class can use a pistol to shoot a guy in the head every single time at 20m, but will miss him with an automatic rifle.

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Original post by Zouflain Any two machines, when compared, are not exactly alike. Take cars for instance - two Fords made at different factories will have different lifespans on certain parts, because the manufacturers may use slightly different procedures, have different workers, and may calibrate their machines even slightly differently. Some of these differences may lead to faults, which degrades the performance/lifespan/ect of these parts. A good manufacturer might make the difference between a gun with a barrel that doesn't quite fit, thus throwing off your aim a slight amount and one with a barrel that's actually more efficient than the original design. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's believable. So rather than have "Silver Pistol" give the guns a fancy name like AP-2X9, and a set of manufacturers that the player can become familiar with. Gausscorp might make better pistols than rifles, so a Gausscorp AP-2X9 would be better than a Microtech AP-2X9. Similarly, Microtech might make better rifles, so a Michrotech MR-92D would outperform a Gausscorp MR-92D. Alternatively, perhaps Gausscorp barrels are longer lasting, but tend to jam more than the standard issue gun, whereas Microtech barrels are more accurate but wear out much more quickly. If these manufacturers are in-game entities, or even mentioned as an aside (I could even see a NPC muttering "Damn GI Gausscorp rifle, thing always jams..."), it would instill at least a slight sense of realism and continuity. "Upgrading" may simply be "retooling" at a better manufacturer. In fact, you may be able to play off selective upgrades as making a hybrid, using the Gausscorp barrel, and the Microtech stalk or some such mix. In that case, just call it a AP-2X9 Custom, rather like how some guns are customized by people in reality.

I actually really like this idea. It's practically providing some backstory without really trying.

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Original post by Zouflain Any two machines, when compared, are not exactly alike. Take cars for instance - two Fords made at different factories will have different lifespans on certain parts, because the manufacturers may use slightly different procedures, have different workers, and may calibrate their machines even slightly differently. Some of these differences may lead to faults, which degrades the performance/lifespan/ect of these parts. A good manufacturer might make the difference between a gun with a barrel that doesn't quite fit, thus throwing off your aim a slight amount and one with a barrel that's actually more efficient than the original design. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's believable. So rather than have "Silver Pistol" give the guns a fancy name like AP-2X9, and a set of manufacturers that the player can become familiar with. Gausscorp might make better pistols than rifles, so a Gausscorp AP-2X9 would be better than a Microtech AP-2X9. Similarly, Microtech might make better rifles, so a Michrotech MR-92D would outperform a Gausscorp MR-92D. Alternatively, perhaps Gausscorp barrels are longer lasting, but tend to jam more than the standard issue gun, whereas Microtech barrels are more accurate but wear out much more quickly. If these manufacturers are in-game entities, or even mentioned as an aside (I could even see a NPC muttering "Damn GI Gausscorp rifle, thing always jams..."), it would instill at least a slight sense of realism and continuity. "Upgrading" may simply be "retooling" at a better manufacturer. In fact, you may be able to play off selective upgrades as making a hybrid, using the Gausscorp barrel, and the Microtech stalk or some such mix. In that case, just call it a AP-2X9 Custom, rather like how some guns are customized by people in reality.

I like this idea. It reminds me of XCOM apocalipse. But still I think "retooling" or any type of upgrade is not common in modern weapons. Because they are produced with a veil of secrecy, there are not many standards, and the architecture is not compatible with that of other companies. What you usually do is sell the obsolete model in a second hand shop and buy a brand new of the latest model.

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Original post by Zouflain Any two machines, when compared, are not exactly alike. Take cars for instance - two Fords made at different factories will have different lifespans on certain parts, because the manufacturers may use slightly different procedures, have different workers, and may calibrate their machines even slightly differently. Some of these differences may lead to faults, which degrades the performance/lifespan/ect of these parts. A good manufacturer might make the difference between a gun with a barrel that doesn't quite fit, thus throwing off your aim a slight amount and one with a barrel that's actually more efficient than the original design. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's believable. So rather than have "Silver Pistol" give the guns a fancy name like AP-2X9, and a set of manufacturers that the player can become familiar with. Gausscorp might make better pistols than rifles, so a Gausscorp AP-2X9 would be better than a Microtech AP-2X9. Similarly, Microtech might make better rifles, so a Michrotech MR-92D would outperform a Gausscorp MR-92D. Alternatively, perhaps Gausscorp barrels are longer lasting, but tend to jam more than the standard issue gun, whereas Microtech barrels are more accurate but wear out much more quickly. If these manufacturers are in-game entities, or even mentioned as an aside (I could even see a NPC muttering "Damn GI Gausscorp rifle, thing always jams..."), it would instill at least a slight sense of realism and continuity. "Upgrading" may simply be "retooling" at a better manufacturer. In fact, you may be able to play off selective upgrades as making a hybrid, using the Gausscorp barrel, and the Microtech stalk or some such mix. In that case, just call it a AP-2X9 Custom, rather like how some guns are customized by people in reality.

This can be something to consider. It's interesting and does add more detail to the world, like Konidias mentioned.

@Talroth: The reason I'm doing restricting of weapons is mainly for the mechanics of balancing the characters in the game. For example, a doctor in the game will be the "healer" who can use pistols but not handle any other guns. Even though realistically, one can pick up a rifle and just shoot, but the battle system is based on making sure that the healer doesn't get access to higher attack weapons, such as why a priest in a medieval time wouldn't use a sword in battle, at least the traditional one. Even though they can pick it up and swing it with little skill, "skill" is dictated by the player attacking effectively. And in terms of this RPG, I'm not really caring much for being too real. My only concern however was with how to deal with this weapon system and knowing the pros and cons to each, in addition to any opinions on how to make it different if one wishes. Like Zouflain showed, I could solve the naming problem by doing the "inform the player" method.

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Original post by Zido_Z @Talroth: The reason I'm doing restricting of weapons is mainly for the mechanics of balancing the characters in the game. For example, a doctor in the game will be the "healer" who can use pistols but not handle any other guns. Even though realistically, one can pick up a rifle and just shoot, but the battle system is based on making sure that the healer doesn't get access to higher attack weapons, such as why a priest in a medieval time wouldn't use a sword in battle, at least the traditional one...

Couldn't you do the same thing by limitting maximum proficiency with a given class of weapon, rather than forbidding it outright? I ought to be able to pick the assault rifle off the floor and fire wildly in the direction of my oponent, even if I can't become a master with the weapon...

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Original post by Zido_Z The reason I was thinking about this was not because adding an interesting feature, but because guns are harder to try to say "hey, this is stronger."

"This is 'stronger' [than that]" can be expanded to: This is stronger than that along this given axis of measurement. Perhaps it is more accurate, delivers more damage per shot, has a better range, or weighs less.

If there is only one scale, there is only one best weapon. A shotgun is excellent indoors, but not so much for deer hunting.

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Original post by Talroth I easily accept that the sniper class can pick up their trusty .50cal bolt action rifle and pick off targets at 1000m with ease, while some other class will struggle to make the same shot at 300m. What I don't accept is that my class can use a pistol to shoot a guy in the head every single time at 20m, but will miss him with an automatic rifle.

Maybe there are several levels of heirarchical skill. A person with M-16 expertise is also credited with a more general rifle expertise, and beyond that a smaller fraction of projectile weapon expertise.

It might be that handling a laser weapon is quite a bit different from handling a projectile weapon. No kick to brace, slash instead of pinpoint targetting, beam duration and recharge cycles. So only the basic rifle expertise is given.

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Original post by Codeka Well, if you're going for realism, then "upgrading" guns doesn't really work - you can't do that in real-life.

Speaking from experience, it is quite easy to upgrade a firearm. New barrels, free floating barrels, improves sights/optics, altered trigger pull, larger magazine capacity, superior stock design, even rebarreled for a different caliber. Most semi-autos can be converted to full auto fairly easily, though most would quickly jam or fail under extended fire.

Lots of people build custom guns off the old Mauser M1898 bolt action. I've even seen some old ex-US military Krags converted to hotter rounds (though those are no where near as durable as a Mauser!). You can take a K98k and convert it to practically any caliber you want, up to a point. Of course, so many of those guns are around (not only was it probably the most-used and copied military action ever, it's still in production for civilian use!) parts are easy to find.

I've known a few who could make their own barrels and parts. Not many can, but there are some gunsmiths who operate in their basements, making all their own weapons and ammo. A even smaller number have their own personal caliber of ammunition.


On the subject, I would have a gunsmith skill (I love skill systems, but take it as you will) that allows for the personal upgrading. Then have special shops that can also do upgrades for a price. Depending on the setting, these may be under ground, and include things such as making a Beretta 92 into a 93R (full auto, with a 3 shot burst mode, and a small forward grip for support). The major, legit shops should have a limited selection of arms (representing gun control laws and such). Smaller, illegal shops could carry the heavier firepower like full auto machine guns and the like.