Quote:Original post by LessBread

Quote:Original post by Talroth
The Oklahoma City bombing was done for just a few thousand, but could have been done far far cheaper for the same effect. Given that the target in this case was a crowd of unprotected people in the open, then a little bit of forethought and design effort could have seen a horrible mass murder done for less than $1000 in materials.

From what I understand, McVeigh went through demolition training in the Army. I find the claim that the bombing was done for a few thousand dollars dubious.

The Oklahoma City bombing really wasn't that impressive as far as finesse and surgical precision goes. The bulk of it was rather primitive explosives, just a very large amount of them. It was also targeting a building rather than an open crowd, and was therefore more complex than what would have been needed in this case.

A big chunk of it was basically farm grade fertilizer, which is sold by the ton at any local farm supplier. There were many other parts used, but it appears to have been thrown together with a few needless components that artificially inflated its cost. Wikipedia's sources have it costing around $5000, including the truck.

Quote:Original post by JoeCooper
Sorry if this is off-topic but... Is Sweden's bad?

No. Of course not. Sweden is the greatest place on earth! Just ask any Swede! They're also the most honest, open-minded, and tolerant people on the planet. They'll even volunteer their negative blanket opinions about your country and its people to your face within moments of meeting you -- unsolicited! At first blush you might think this is rude and, well, provincial behavior, but you are wrong. The Swedes are unbiased tellers of the unvarnished truth and if you don't think that this hyperdiverse nation, home to a whopping 9 MILLION people, isn't a model for the rest of the world, then frankly, you're stupid and your mother should have been sterilized.

Now please, let's get back to the more serious globally-relevant topic of bashing an FBI sting operation.

Quote:Original post by Valderman
I think you're just jealous because santa lives in my country, not yours.

Well, yes. ;(

Quote:Original post by JoeCooper
What if I went to a black market gun dealer, bought a machine gun, told the seller "I plan to go spray bullets at the mall, fuck the world!", and that person happened to be an FBI agent?

Shame on them? Seriously?

Yes, shame on them seriously, but that's not what happened and you know it.

What if you went an ice cream shop and told someone you met there that you wanted to blow up the mall and he said come to my house I can help you and when you got to his house he gave you a truck preloaded with a bomb and pointed you to the parking lot on the south side of the mall because that's where his friends were waiting to arrest you because in reality they were not his friends but FBI agents. What if, eh?

What if you went an ice cream shop and told someone you met there that you wanted to blow up the mall and he said you're nuts and besides I'm an FBI agent and we'll be keeping an eye on you now, so wise up and straighten out your act. What if, eh?

Quote:Original post by Talroth

Quote:Original post by LessBread

Quote:Original post by Talroth
The Oklahoma City bombing was done for just a few thousand, but could have been done far far cheaper for the same effect. Given that the target in this case was a crowd of unprotected people in the open, then a little bit of forethought and design effort could have seen a horrible mass murder done for less than $1000 in materials.

From what I understand, McVeigh went through demolition training in the Army. I find the claim that the bombing was done for a few thousand dollars dubious.

The Oklahoma City bombing really wasn't that impressive as far as finesse and surgical precision goes. The bulk of it was rather primitive explosives, just a very large amount of them. It was also targeting a building rather than an open crowd, and was therefore more complex than what would have been needed in this case.

A big chunk of it was basically farm grade fertilizer, which is sold by the ton at any local farm supplier. There were many other parts used, but it appears to have been thrown together with a few needless components that artificially inflated its cost. Wikipedia's sources have it costing around $5000, including the truck.

So the price was twice a few thousand dollars. Q.E.D.

Quote:Original post by LessBread
So the price was twice a few thousand dollars. Q.E.D.

"A few" means 2.5 now?

There's a lot more to it than just stopping a single plot, whether it was a substantial threat in itself or not. The FBI first heard about this kid because of his writings in a jihad magazine, and the fact that he was looking for terrorist training in Pakistan through online contacts. I believe he actually did contact someone known to be involved in arranging training and such, but because of operations like this one the contact quickly dropped Mohamud, who then was the subject of this whole elaborate operation. They didn't just pick some kid and start grooming him to take a fall.

A major goal of these stings is to make it more difficult for people in the US to make contact with dangerous groups with funding and experience. It's not so easy to put together a dangerous plot that has a reasonable chance of succeeding from scratch, which is why people that have such goals look for help. Anything that makes that process more difficult is valuable because the effects of a coherent attack are so severe.

There aren't that many big-time bomb makers, and making a decent one takes a fair amount of education. There are way more potential trigger-men, since that takes no skill or experience whatsoever. One bomb maker can equip several bombers and keep a much lower profile. Had Mohamud actually contacted who he thought he had, events would probably have unfolded as they did in the sting, but for real. The bomb would have been made for him, the attack planned with help-- but there would have been fewer (if any) explicit opportunities to call things off. It may not be likely that Mohamud would ever have successfully contacted such a person, but the idea is to produce a chilling effect on efforts by others to make such contacts.

I agree that this is largely theatrical, particularly the media portrayal of it. But no one is arguing that Mohamud didn't want to kill a lot of random people, or that he tried to realize that desire, however feeble his attempts. Perhaps the next would-be bombers won't even try to connect with experts who can help tehm, and will be even less of a threat as a result.

To those saying the FBI is just making these plots to produce fear and boogeymen:

The FBI created a 'boogey' plot. Will someone come across a ridiculous amount of high-grade explosives, probably not. What the FBI did NOT create, is a psycho killer ready to snap. Do I think a single terrorist will nuke us, no thats an unrealistic threat. Am I still worried that someone believes that nuking the US is reasonable, yes. And who cares what plot they came up with and how unrealistic it was, the guy doesnt need to build a bomb, he can buy a machine gun for pretty cheap. If your willing to detonate a bomb, you'd be willing to use a machine gun wouldn't you?

They just caught another one in Maryland. Someone suggested thought is not a crime, well no, but the guy pressed a button to kill people (an action). There is a thing called criminal intent and planned murder. If a kid goes to school and someone hears them saying "I'm gonna bring a gun and F*in kill everyone", you better believe hes getting in trouble, now that's still not an action, but add in if they find a gun in his posession...... Same thing is happening here.

I don't see how someone so committed to killing people would finish their life without doing so. You have really high dreams to be a game programmer and the ambition to do so, you will. If you really want to kill people, take 5 months talking about it and meeting people to do it, you will most likely have the mind to do it at some point.

Quote:Original post by Talroth

Quote:Original post by LessBread
So the price was twice a few thousand dollars. Q.E.D.

"A few" means 2.5 now?

So a few meant 5 a few moments ago? 5 is closer to 6 than it is to 3.