A Common Thread

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61 comments, last by Promit 6 years, 2 months ago

IKNFL began in 1995.  It was the first mod ever included on the CD with the game in 1998, as far as I am aware anyway.  I could certainly be wrong about that.  The word "mod" didn't exist yet, Sierra called it "an alternate configuration for the game".  The player ratings of all sports games are simply a continuation of IKNFL through the influence of Madden.  You are right, I never got any credit for that.  I was taught "poker chip prototyping" by one of the original founders of Avalon Hill, I've known about that since before your industry existed and learned of it from the original source.

I honestly didn't mean for this thread to blow up into all of this. Since it did, I thought I'd explain what I meant by “One Vision” since it is open to such a broad interpretation. I thought it spoke for itself when I posted it, but I can see that I was very wrong about that. It genuinely is open to interpretation from many different points of view, so here is mine.

“One Vision” isn't the only way to make a game. Design by committee works in a lot, if not most, cases. I already gave the example of typical FPS and RTS games, everyone involved knows what the game is already. But the committee is always re-making the most recent popular game in most ways. Anything that deviates too far from the consensus vision of the moment will be voted back into line with the group's generic vision of the last few successful similar games. Most games don't necessarily need a single vision guiding them, but would probably benefit from it if they did.

This doesn't mean one person does it all by themselves, and that nobody else is involved with the design of the game. Steve Cole has always owned his own company, so he gets to be “God”. His games are guided by his singular vision, and a lot of gamers like that vision so he has an audience that has allowed him to successfully continue making his games for his entire life. This type of endurance is a valuable thing from a business perspective, it should be a desired thing by the people who are funding these games. But a rare thing, because not everyone was born to be a game designer (or story teller, or artist, or programmer, etc). It's usually only the ones who were born to do a thing that develop an audience.

SVC may be the “God” of his universe, but he is also known as “the most accessible game designer in the industry”. He has created a very organized system for anyone and everyone to suggest their own ideas for the design of his games, and for those ideas to also be vetted by other top players in addition too himself. He listens to those ideas and uses them more than anyone else, but when he does he molds them to fit his vision that his audience loves. In some cases, such as alien species, design by committee is better than a single vision. Many of the alien species of SVCs games began as submissions from players, so that they would be more “alien” among SVC's own core “empires”. Of course, it's still his vision in the end... he was the one who decided it would be a better idea to use other people's ideas in that case. That's just all a part of his vision. This is the true meaning of “game design is a benevolent dictatorship ruled by an iron fist”.

And this is exactly the “rock star as game designer” situation that you have always striven too avoid. I can understand why the programmers would desire that, but not the businessmen who are funding all this. “Rock stars” who have their own audience are reliable, their audience buys their games and you know how large their audience is. The modern game industry not only does not have a system for finding these people, but actively seeks to keep them out. I would think the people funding these efforts would be looking for these types of people, not seeking to keep them out of the system entirely.

You've had these types of people in your business before, Sid Meier and Will Wright are the best examples because they were the primary inspiration in the whole “rock star as game designer” is a bad thing mentality that emerged. You didn't want it to work like Hollywood, where only the dozen or so projects with the big name stars get to make big budget movies. These two also make for a great example of another aspect of the concept that I am referring too as “One Vision”.

If Sid Meier and Will Wright collaborated on a Sid Meier-like game, in any disagreement they might have Sid would always be right. It's his audience. His audience loves his games, and his vision, not Will's. If they were collaborating on a Will Wright game the opposite would, of course, be true. Sid would just mess Will's game up in the minds of Will's audience. Sid can add a lot too Will's games, but only the things that Will thinks fit in with his vision. It's his audience. And again, this works both ways.

There is no right way of doing it. Each way has its place. Except in very rare situations, the modern game industry only does it one way and ignores the other. You certainly don't attempt to foster the more reliable “game designer that develops an audience”, in fact you do everything you can to keep that from happening. That only ever happens in spite of your system, not because of it. The people who are funding these efforts should WANT to find those types of people, not support a system that prevents them from ever identifying them.

And, of course, when it comes to space ship games, there is no better indicator that you might be looking at someone like that than the words “Star Fleet Battles Staff”. Especially considering that almost every space ship game that you have ever played was, either directly or indirectly, inspired by SFB. Made by casual players... who just barely understood how to play it wrong. Just imagine what one of the actual assistant designers from the design phase of the final edition might do. Master of Orion was actually a complete disaster... “Gamers don't miss what they have never had.”

 

"I wish that I could live it all again."

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All that stuff you just described about Steve Cole's process?

Common in video games as well.

You clearly have no idea how professional video game development is typically carried out, I would suggest you stop dismissing it based on your own assumptions.

Of course I'm not saying bad "design by committee" doesn't happen in video games, of course it does; but we know very well that it's bad when it happens, and it isn't more common than it is in table top development.

 

 

...and there you go again with the same nonsense about rock star developers.

Noone has a problem with them. Noone is trying to keep them out.

The industry loves them. There is very much and effort to attract, foster, and support them.

 

1 hour ago, Kavik Kang said:

It was the first mod ever included on the CD with the game in 1998, as far as I am aware anyway.  I could certainly be wrong about that.

Yep, I don't know if any were earlier, but Final Doom beats you by a couple of years, shipping in 1996 and including user created mods.

- Jason Astle-Adams

16 minutes ago, jbadams said:

The industry loves them.

It's near impossible to overstate just how much it loves them.

Chris Roberts crowdfunded over $170 million dollars basically on the strength of his name. And he hadn't shipped a game in a decade at that point...

Tristam MacDonald. Ex-BigTech Software Engineer. Future farmer. [https://trist.am]

Yes, I know it is very similar.  Not the same thing, but similar.  That is why I sometimes say that SVC invented the process by which you make games today.  He was the first to organize game design into a collaborative effort of dozens of people, and he began doing before the internet through the US mail and his Captain's Log magazine.  We really were your founding fathers, SVC modernized game design and development in a lot of ways.

I always assumed IKNFL had to be the first published mod for computer games because we were the first organized online game community for a commercial game.  Where else could that have happened?  So it is interesting too see that there was actually one that came a little before IKNFL.  The first "mods" were actually "Unofficial Expansions" for Avalon Hill games.  There were tons of them.  The unofficial expansions for SFB were made by a former staff member named John Hammer and were called "Shadow Empires".  The most famous and most widely available unofficial expansion for a board game was probably the one for Axis & Allies that added destroyers and a bunch of other rules.

There had been a court case early on where it was ruled that as long as you were not attempting to fool people into believe that you were the original makers, with similar logos and packaging, that it was legal to create additional material for other people's games.  I've always assume that law still stands, and is why you never hear about lawsuits over mods of computer games.

"I wish that I could live it all again."

14 hours ago, ChaosEngine said:

I think, in Kaviks case, there’s one born every minute...

And they're all centuries ahead of everyone else. I really wonder where these temporal disparities are coming from sometimes.

My own comments though: the only problem here is pure arrogance, on Kavik's part, and that's all we are seeing prove itself, over and over. 

Really, I'm failing to see the point of this thread, other than serving as a showcase for complaints that many have seen from Kavik for years.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

2 hours ago, Kavik Kang said:

There had been a court case early on where it was ruled that as long as you were not attempting to fool people into believe that you were the original makers, with similar logos and packaging, that it was legal to create additional material for other people's games.  I've always assume that law still stands, and is why you never hear about lawsuits over mods of computer games.

It's actually more like a lot of games give modders access to their engine/assets (id Software being one of the first as Wolf3D could have new maps made for it, though Doom actually supported mods outright).  Valve had great success with this also.  It allows your game to live on, requiring people wanting to play a mod and not so much your game, to buy your game to play such a mod (think Counter-Strike modded from Half Life).  It increases the longevity/sales of your game at the same time.  So why, if they follow some simple rules like not charging (without permission) or trying to steal your brand/logos/etc, would you be stupid enough to sue them?

My father, who is 65, is learning to program in C/C++ so your hogwash about being to old to learn it is just that, hogwash and an excuse to not produce anything but instead be a keyboard vigilante (and unjustifiably arrogant one at that).  This is a pretty darn open and friendly community, but it seems they've had quite enough of your BS.  Maybe its time to troll reddit for a while?  I know I'm not a huge fan of hanging out where I'm clearly not appreciated and/or liked.  But I might be weird that way too.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

3 hours ago, Kavik Kang said:

I always assumed IKNFL had to be the first published mod for computer games because we were the first organized online game community for a commercial game.  Where else could that have happened?

It could have happened with Island of Kesmai in 1985, and numerous other games in the intervening years.

You know it's ok that your game mod wasn't the first of anything...?  Maybe spend a minute on Google before any more assumptions?

You have a very skewed/inaccurate idea of gaming history (example: there were commercial versions of alternate rule sets before Avalon Hill was even founded, and no doubt unofficial alternate rules for hundreds of even thousands of years!) just as a lot of your complaints about video game development are actually just assumptions that can trivially proven incorrect.

These might seem like little, inconsequential things, but they're part of why you don't get taken seriously: when you keep making these claims that are trivially proven incorrect, it makes people doubt your real qualifications too.

Stop blaming everyone else for your failure to succeed, the reality just doesn't match your descriptions of everything.

- Jason Astle-Adams

The thing is, it's not like there's not a grain of truth in what Kavik Kang says - as part of the designing team of SFB it's possible he has significant experience in designing games and is actually competent at it.

From the wiki page :
 

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Star Fleet Battles was inducted into the Academy of Adventure Gaming, Arts, & Design Hall of Fame in 2005 where they stated that "Star Fleet Battles literally defined the genre of spaceship combat games in the early 1980s, and was the first game that combined a major license with 'high re-playability'."[15] In his 2007 essay, Bruce Nesmith stated "No other game in hobby game history so completely captures the feel of ship-to-ship combat in space than Star Fleet Battles. The fact that it does so in the Star Fleet Universe is icing on the cake."[1]

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Brush Nesmith, btw, is one of those table-top designers that the industry "never hires" apparently, except Bethesda did and he made, oh, you know, those small obscure games, Daggerfall, Oblivion and Skyrim :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Nesmith

And what do you know, the main designer of Morrowind and Oblivion(and I should also mention Amalur, which was pretty excellent despite its unfortunate commercial failure) came from tabletop-game fame too,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Rolston

The whole thing about the game industry not "paying its dues" to the tabletop industry is nonsense anyway - perhaps the most famous book about the game industry is "Masters of Doom" and a good portion of it is dedicated to describe how the id guys spent all their free time playing D&D games with Carmack as DM - "Quake" was one of the characters in one of those games.

And it's not like nobody ever hired Kavik either - he's the designer of Sinistar Unleashed.

So all in all, there is a grain of truth in what he says - having worked on SFB should be condidered some serious credentials when it comes to be hired for a space game. My guess is he's actually probably knowledgeable and competent enough when it comes to designing games, but terrible at presenting himself, his ideas, incredibly off-putting attitude, and probably impossible to work or even converse with at this point. You woudn't be able to have him sit down and explain his ideas to the rest of the team without making speeches that make Fidel Castro's look like 30-second commercials. :D

(As to the purpose of this thread - my impression is that Kavik really actually enjoys all this process - this is a venue for him to vent. And...we are bored. Better than nothing... :D ).

43 minutes ago, mikeman said:

it's not like there's not a grain of truth in what Kavik Kang says - as part of the designing team of SFB it's possible he has significant experience in designing games and is actually competent at it.

I don't think anyone has ever really questioned that, but when he keeps saying things that are obviously false it's hard not to assume he's overstating his involvement... and then he only has credit on one product out of the entire product line...

46 minutes ago, mikeman said:

My guess is he's actually probably knowledgeable and competent enough when it comes to designing games, but terrible at presenting himself, his ideas, incredibly off-putting attitude, and probably impossible to work or even converse with at this point.

That is very much my impression.

- Jason Astle-Adams

1 hour ago, mikeman said:

it's not like there's not a grain of truth in what Kavik Kang says

Yes that is the problem and why so many of us keeps checking his posts. When it comes to game design Kavik Kang shows true knowledge but when it comes to Rube he acts like a amateur.

He worked his way up from a low score, it's low again, by giving good advice the other developers. When he talks of design, it's often great advice.

Personally that is why every time he makes a topic I take the time to read it.

 

It is also what annoys me the most.

Since the first post I read of Rube, I've gathered a team to build a Indie game AND released two mobile games, for over 800 000 players.

I had to start from scratch each time, with no publisher funding me or crowd funding and was able to do this. By my logic a developer with years more experience than me should be able to do more.

@Kavik Kang build a team, make a game. I would really like to see what you can achieve with your skill. Considering how many people keep viewing your posts, I don't believe I am the only one. But no one is going to do it for you.

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