quote:Original post by Witchcraven
was I correct about Neos options when he was talking with the architecht?

Yep.

quote:Original post by Myopic Rhino
Neo died in the real world in the first movie, and Trinity died in the real world in this movie. And they both came back. The real world being another matrix, which Neo is beginning to learn how to control, would account for this. (Thanks, Mith, for reminding me of this point.)

ALthough I think its pretty obvious that the Matrix Real World and the MTV Real World are identical, I don't think this point really serves the argument. In both movies, the person dies and almost immediately comes back. In the first, Neo is shot in the matrix. His brain gets confused, shuts down all his bodily functions, and disconects itself from the Nebercanezer (sp??). But at the same time as he is dying, his consciousness is realizing its powers (I feel this is independent of the stupid Trinity love shit). So after disconnecting from the Nebercanezer, his consciousness fixes Neo's Matrix body. I'll get to the rest of the process after considering Trinity.

Trinity is a bit harder to get around because she isn't a superhero. Neo gets the bullet out, but she was in such shock that she still bit it. So he massages her heart ER style, getting her Matrix body back on track. This is fine, and I think we can all accept that Neo can pull this off with his uber-l337 haxor skillz.

But at that point she had still disconnected from the Nebercanezer (that "Signal Lost" error). I don't remember how the original handled Neo's death. Was there a similar error, or just all his vital signs going to zero? If it is the former, then everything is OK. The Nebercanezer stopped recieving data from Neo's matrix body, which causes his real brain to shut down. But then his body was revived by his superhero conciousness, and the Nebercanezer started recieving signals again. Because of how quickly this occured, Neo's body was able to start back up once his brain started bossing it around again. The same thing happened with Trinity; when Neo brought her Matrix body back to life, Trinity's brain started back up.

If there was not an explicit "Signal Lost" message, then things may be a bit more complicated. But probably not, since you can just imagine that the same scenario occured. But I'm willing to accept there may be a small hole in my theory.

Now, all that said, I want to point out that there is one HUGE problem with this movie.

What the fuck happened to Dozer? They imply quite heavily that Tank and Dozer are the black guy's wife's brothers, and that they are both dead. But I am quite certain that Dozer survived through the end of the first film. Its possible that his injuries were worse than believed, and he died later from them, but that's the sort of thing you can't just leave off.

*edit: move rebuttles.
The Oracle knowing that Trinity and Neo were going to get it on doesn't neccissarily imply that Trinity and Neo are being manipulated outside the Matrix. I think we can all agree that the machines have a certain level of control over how people develop emotionally within the Matrix. So if the machines are setting things up within the Matrix to happen the way they want them to, then it is quite possible that Trinity and Neo were conditioned to be attracted to each other. The Oracle knew years out who the One was going to be, so telling Trinity that she was going to fall for the man she was created to fall for isn't such a stretch.

Also, Trinity's death being used as part of Neo's choice isn't particuarly surprising by the time Neo gets to the Architect. She's already within the Matrix by then, so the machines know what is going to happen and can use it against Neo. It is quite possible that there was a backup plan that didn't rely on Trinity that would have been used if things hadn't happened properly.

Of course, Neo's knowledge of Trinity's death in advance is pretty damning evidence. That one I'm having trouble explaining away.

CM

[edited by - Conner McCloud on May 15, 2003 4:14:13 PM]

Actually it was tank that survived the first movie (I believe).
but I was also put off by the fact that he just randomly "died."

quote:If the "real world" is just another level of the matrix then why are the robots working so hard to kill everyone there? I would think they would only work hard enought to make it seem plausable, since they are using these people for energy they don''t want to kill them.

I think it''s something like what CpMan said. The oricals system where people are given a subconsious option of weather or not they want to be in the matrix ends up with 99% of the people staying in it. Now, this 1% is still a LOT of people for the machines to deal with. I''m thinking they created the matrix within a matrix so the people that got out of the first would be convinced that they need to rescue all the others from the inner matrix without even thinking they are stuck in a second.

Something I think I missed though...wern''t his choices to choose between saving trinity or saving zion (by selecting the 20 people to rebuild it?)


A few more questions.
-What was the name of the guy that held the keymaker?
-What did he say in french...I think it had something to do with "your mom", but that''s about all I caught.
-Why did persphanie tell that guy that only dies when shot with silver bullets to go get (insert answer to the first question here) if she was trying to help them?
-Do I remember the architect saying Neo was the first "one" to be effected by love, or is that just something my head made up while sleeping? (if so, that explains why he may be breaking the cycle)
-What did the Mr. Smiths want?

Personally, I really really want for the real world to be the real world. As I said, I don''t think it is. The 1% that don''t chose the Matrix simply get put in "Zion", which is itself part of the Matrix.

The problem with this is that now we have absolutely no clue who the bad guys are. Everything we know about the world is invalidated. Maybe the history that Morpheus revealed in the first film is acurate, and this really is all just what happened when the Terminator''s finally succeed in killing John Connor. But we don''t know. Maybe there are no machines, and this is all just the prison that people are sent to in "Minority Report." Maybe its just a big virtual reality game, like in "The Thirteenth Floor." Or maybe its just a dream like in "Total Recal."

As cool as the twist was, I think it was *too* big a twist. It removed both the protagonists and the antagonists from the story. Sure, you know who is going to be fighting who in the next film. But you don''t know *why* Neo is fighting, or *why* the machines are fighting back.

Still, though, I think I like Smith. I no longer really feel for the humans, they aren''t fighting for anything anymore. They say they''re fighting for freedom, but they don''t even know that they are being imprisoned. But Smith is different. He wants out of the Matrix just to be out of the Matrix. He has no concept of freedom or justice, he just wants out. So he finds a way to get out, just to discover that he is still inside the Matrix. The fact that this all may just be a dream or game doesn''t change the fact that the wants out of it, at any cost. Really, he''s the purest character in the film.

CM