Ubuntu

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106 comments, last by Fiddler 13 years, 3 months ago

Well I don't have the time to perform all that admin stuff. So when they call me they expect a list of a few clear instructions so they can do it all by themselves. Giving such a list is, from experience, harder to do on Ubuntu than on Windows.


Because, ..., the topic-oriented app-menu is on the top-left and not the lower right? Or is it because of the dark colours and multi-pixel-wide font in the default theme? Or why? What is this "experience" which construes that Ubuntu is inherently harder to administer for Mr. Doe?

My guess: You compare your 100-years-of-Windows wisdom with your Tried-A-Live-Disc wisdom and try to make a serious statement based on that. If not, please feel free to answer my question.


As a side note, anyone who thinks that open source means "l33t dude doing whatever" should seriously gtfo of any discussion on the subject until he's done a little bit of research.


So basically, you just said 'get the fuck out of here'. Nice argumentation you've got there.
Indeed, he wrote "gtfo", which is the abbrv. o. gtfoh. In the same vein one can say

As a side note, anyone who thinks that Mac OS X means "arrogant bird of paradise doing whatever" should seriously gtfo of any discussion on the subject until he's done a little bit of research.
or
As a side note, anyone who thinks that Windows means "n3rd gamer who cracks games and apps" should seriously gtfo of any discussion on the subject until he's done a little bit of research.
or
As a side note, anyone who thinks that being gay means "raping children and having aids" should seriously gtfo of any discussion on the subject until he's done a little bit of research.
or
As a side note, anyone who thinks that being hetero means "boring babbit" should seriously gtfo of any discussion on the subject until he's done a little bit of research.
and so on.
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'godmodder' said:

Well I don't have the time to perform all that admin stuff. So when they call me they expect a list of a few clear instructions so they can do it all by themselves. Giving such a list is, from experience, harder to do on Ubuntu than on Windows.


Because, …, the topic-oriented app-menu is on the top-left and not the lower right? Or is it because of the dark colours and multi-pixel-wide font in the default theme? Or why?


No that would be silly :P
It's because Ubuntu still focuses too much on terminal-based interaction. Most users don't understand any of those funny words they have to type in there.
And if there's a GUI, performing an action in it requires substantial more steps than in the windows GUI. I just wish there were more HCI people in the linux community. Everything could be improved a whole lot just by obeying a few simple rules from cognitive psychology. Something that Microsoft has understood for some time now.

You compare your 100-years-of-Windows wisdom with your Tried-A-Live-Disc wisdom and try to make a serious statement based on that. If not, please feel free to answer my question

Well, actually the OS I was most familiar with until I used Windows was Solaris. I started using Ubuntu in 2004 and used to be a pretty hardcore user. But work forced me to use Visual Studio and I'm afraid got addicted to it. ;)

I saw your other comments only after I posted this and I find them bordering on the offensive. Please, I'm just expressing my opinion. It is only fair for me to expect some good argumentation instead of just 'gtfo' or 'gtfoh'.

It's because Ubuntu still focuses too much on terminal-based interaction. Most users don't understand any of those funny words they have to type in there.
And if there's a GUI, performing an action in it requires substantial more steps than in the windows GUI. I just wish there were more HCI people in the linux community. Everything could be improved a whole lot just by obeying a few simple rules from cognitive psychology. Something that Microsoft has understood for some time now.


I just spent a week with a few hundred very hard core Ubuntu developers (you can't get any more hard core than a Canonical development sprint). I rarely saw a command-line terminal outside of my own machine, and I only use the CLI out of a 30-odd year habit. I would compare this to using Windows Server: a number of tasks can only be performed from the command line on Windows Server, the same tasks can be done through a GUI on Ubuntu Server. No one on their right mind should consider a server administrator as the same as a regular Jane user, however.

I have not had to compile a kernel to install a driver in years, outside of bringing up new blinkenlights boards. The DKMS system (a way of inserting new drivers into the currently running kernel) has been available for quite a while, and almost everything works out of the box anyways. I admit my job puts me on the leading edge so I install new drivers frequently, but I have never compiled a kernel for Ubuntu.

Canonical has a sizeable full time HCI team working to improve the UI. Unfortunately for many, it's not doing so by trying to emulate Microsoft Windows. It's an easily observable phenomenon that when most peaple say "Linux is hard to use" or "the interface isn't intuitive" what they really mean is "it doesn't work just like Windows." The next release of Ubuntu will look event less like Windows than ever. A lot of work has gone in to making it look the way it does: usability studies, longitudinal use studies, human kinetics evaluations, people with odd haircuts and wearing all black drawing on napkins, etc. A lot of work has gone in to supporting a broad range of hardware, too, from desktops with massive 3D acceleration to ARM-based netbooks. Many many hours fixing bugs. Unfortunately, 3D hardware manufacturers do not give good support to Linux for their closed-source drivers or competing open-source drivers, so there are still bugs there that are beyond the ability of a company without the billions in Microsoft's or Apple's pockets to fix.

It's also pretty important to understand that Ubuntu and "the Linux community" are two different things with a small degree of overlap. Criticism of one does not necessarily apply to the other. Conflating them as a rhetorical technique will get you bonus points when you preach to the choir but does not contribute to making the world a better place.

Stephen M. Webb
Professional Free Software Developer


'phresnel' said:

'godmodder' said:

Well I don't have the time to perform all that admin stuff. So when they call me they expect a list of a few clear instructions so they can do it all by themselves. Giving such a list is, from experience, harder to do on Ubuntu than on Windows.


Because, …, the topic-oriented app-menu is on the top-left and not the lower right? Or is it because of the dark colours and multi-pixel-wide font in the default theme? Or why?


No that would be silly :P
It's because Ubuntu still focuses too much on terminal-based interaction.

That is so wrong that I totally lose interest in a discussion with you, especially after so many replies of Linux+GUI users that state the complete opposite.


Most users don't understand any of those funny words they have to type in there.
Yet it is easier to tell CLI commands over phone then GUI commands. "Darling, press <alt>+<gr> simultaneously, a black box pops up, then type "su /home/foo/my-wlan-restart-script" "Internet is back again, thanks, honey" "Np laterz". Testcase from a few years ago when I used a windows centric usb wlan stick.

And if there's a GUI, performing an action in it requires substantial more steps than in the windows GUI.
This cannot be generalized. Some tasks are faster on windows, some on ubuntu. Configuring internet over wlan with supported hardware takes two or three steps on a box where there's not even a harddisk.



You compare your 100-years-of-Windows wisdom with your Tried-A-Live-Disc wisdom and try to make a serious statement based on that. If not, please feel free to answer my question

Well, actually the OS I was most familiar with until I used Windows was Solaris. I started using Ubuntu in 2004 and used to be a pretty hardcore user. But work forced me to use Visual Studio and I'm afraid got addicted to it. ;)
I smell that your knowledge is therefore out of date.


I saw your other comments only after I posted this and I find them bordering on the offensive. Please, I'm just expressing my opinion. It is only fair for me to expect some good argumentation instead of just 'gtfo' or 'gtfoh'.
?

I admit my style of speech is pragmatic at times and not always folded in wad. But really, offensive?

edit: I've looked back at all my posts in this thread. I found no single one that is only aiming at the offensive horizon, and So basically, you just said 'get the fuck out of here'. Nice argumentation you've got there. was simply wrong / a misunderstanding.

It's because Ubuntu still focuses too much on terminal-based interaction. Most users don't understand any of those funny words they have to type in there.


I have to agree with Phresnel on this. Texted based terminals actually are easier to explain to someone who doesn't really know what they're doing.

I had one computer where I couldn't get the sound card to work. It was a fairly common problem, and I googled "Ubuntu + 'soundcardname' + error", and the very first page was a list of commands to enter into a terminal, as hosted on the Ubuntu forums. I copied those, line for line, into the command line,... And it just worked. There was no hunting around for icons or sub menus. Twenty seconds of typing, and thirty of sitting there letting the computer do its thing, and the problem was solved.

The commands could have been Chinese characters that I copy-pasted for all the understanding of them that was required by me.

(And to be clear, no, I can't read Chinese.)
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.
That is so wrong that I totally lose interest in a discussion with you, especially after so many replies of Linux+GUI users that state the complete opposite.

How can that be wrong? Just count the number of times you open up the terminal a week in Ubuntu and in Windows. Here, it is a 100:1 ratio.
If you don't use the terminal frequently, you're just using Ubuntu to surf the web, editing some documents or whatever. That's fine, but the world's moved on and the focus is on entertainement and interdevice operation. When it gets just a tiny bit more advanced, like the dvd example, or the emulator example, or setting up dual-screen, or 5.1 audio on a non-supported card, or getting network printers to work from every computer in the network, or streaming movies and it doesn't work immediately out of the box, then you are forced to use the terminal.

To give an example: today my girlfriend called and asked why her dual-screen had suddenly stopped working. I had to put her through manually editing the xorg.conf to get it working again. Modifying the option from the GUI wasn't even possible and it would silently get overwritten each time. A classical example of where Ubuntu still keeps terminal > GUI.

Do you really think that telling your girlfriend to
gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and then modify obscure commands x y and z and reload

Is easier then:
Ok, right-click on your desktop. Then click on Nvidia control panel and choose Setup multiple monitors. Choose clone.

Even if you think that is easier (which would be freaky), which one is easier to understand and remember for your girlfriend for when the problem reoccurs?
I smell that you are such an advanced user that you don't even remember what it's like to know nothing about computers.

I smell that your knowledge is therefore out of date.
As you can derive from the previous comments, I still use Ubuntu on a regular basis. So do the people around me.

I admit my style of speech is pragmatic at times and not always folded in wad. But really, offensive?

Did you really have to put me on the same level as someone who said that being gay revolved around raping children and having aids?

-----------------

I just spent a week with a few hundred very hard core Ubuntu developers (you can't get any more hard core than a Canonical development sprint). I rarely saw a command-line terminal outside of my own machine, and I only use the CLI out of a 30-odd year habit.

I would suggest you seriously reconsider your definition of hardcore. How about coding an improved NFS implementation in the kernel, or writing a device driver for a new 3D magnetic accoustic tracker. I rarely ever saw a GUI interface on the screens of the people I worked with. They coded this stuff in emacs or vi and were able to instantly compile and preview their changes on another box through a network simulator (NFS case). They had written several complicated scripts that made this seamless way of development possible.

How can that be wrong? Just count the number of times you open up the terminal a week in Ubuntu and in Windows. Here, it is a 100:1 ratio.
Your posts indicate that the problem isn't Ubuntu not being able to do certain things graphically, but your being set in the "let's do everything using the terminal" way. There's nothing wrong with that, I prefer the terminal for most tasks myself, but it's silly to blame Ubuntu for your personal preferences.

When it gets just a tiny bit more advanced, like the dvd exampleOne-click install. Didn't you read my post?

or the emulator exampleExact same installation procedure as Windows unless you explicitly choose to compile one on your own. Didn't you read my post?

or setting up dual-screenPlug in monitor, done.

or getting network printers to work from every computer in the networkThis one takes at least three clicks, unless you're blaming Ubuntu for your Windows machines not having the proper drivers installed?

or streaming movies and it doesn't work immediately out of the box, then you are forced to use the terminal.The terminal is not a requirement for installing Flash, no.

To give an example: today my girlfriend called and asked why her dual-screen had suddenly stopped working. I had to put her through manually editing the xorg.conf to get it working again.You know that using xorg.conf at all is discouraged these days, right? Why didn't you just give her the xrandr command to fix things, I reckon that'd be the easiest way to do something like that over the phone.

Modifying the option from the GUI wasn't even possible and it would silently get overwritten each time. A classical example of where Ubuntu still keeps terminal > GUI....because you persist in using xorg.conf, which takes precedence. Stop doing that.

Do you really think that telling your girlfriend to
gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf and then modify obscure commands x y and z and reload

Is easier then:
Ok, right-click on your desktop. Then click on Nvidia control panel and choose Setup multiple monitors. Choose clone.This, along with other examples you've posted, indicates the problem clearly: you don't really know what you're doing, but you're pretty damn sure you're a power user. Some of the problems you've described could only be caused by a self-appointed power user playing at "configuring" (read: mucking around where he shouldn't) the system while others are of the kind "there is an easy solution but I don't know about it and as a power user I don't need Google so I'll recompile shit randomly until it works."

Even if you think that is easier (which would be freaky), which one is easier to understand and remember for your girlfriend for when the problem reoccurs?
I smell that you are such an advanced user that you don't even remember what it's like to know nothing about computers.Because putting a short xrandr invocation in a script file on her desktop with the text "DOUBLE-CLICK ME IF THE SECOND MONITOR DIES AGAIN" is seriously hard work.

--

OK, WTF is up with the forum whining about too many quote blocks? Is OVER NINE THOUSAND quotes in a single post one of the features I get with GDNet+?
since Im on ubuntu now with two monitors attached to my PC, heres what I do

system->administration-> Nvidia X server settings

dialog pops up

click on 'detect displays' viola

In fact in looks like I have far more options under linux than under windows WRT display stuff
eg seperate AA settings on each monitor, dithering, GPU scaling, color range.
Ill boot up to windows later to see if I can even change this on windows (for each monitor seperately)

I smell that you are such an advanced user that you don't even remember what it's like to know nothing about computers.
Thats perhaps true, but Ill also say for non-computer users the easiest (I hate it mind + I have one) is a mac (unix based OS)

ps - I havent had a tv for >10 years. I watch more films than anyone here (90% chance this is correct, mainly due to not having a TV!) all on the PC
Your posts indicate that the problem isn't Ubuntu not being able to do certain things graphically, but your being set in the "let's do everything using the terminal" way. There's nothing wrong with that, I prefer the terminal for most tasks myself, but it's silly to blame Ubuntu for your personal preferences.

I can only conclude that you have a funny way of concluding things.

One-click install. Didn't you read my post?
It's not, you have to perform at the very least 7 clicks to install the most basic things you need (codecs,...)
That doesn't even include the text you need to type.

Exact same installation procedure as Windows unless you explicitly choose to compile one on your own. Didn't you read my post?

I read you post in which you claimed that good enough emulators were available in binary form. I seriously disagree. We clearly have a different opinion on good enough.

Plug in monitor, done.

Maybe in your perfect Ubuntu world.

This one takes at least three clicks, unless you're blaming Ubuntu for your Windows machines not having the proper drivers installed?

At least three clicks??? Yeah perhaps on a simple 3-pc network or something. I had to perform a gazzilion clicks only to conclude that my printer is still not accesible from some systems in my network.

The terminal is not a requirement for installing Flash, no.

That's not what I meant with streaming!

You know that using xorg.conf at all is discouraged these days, right? Why didn't you just give her the xrandr command to fix things, I reckon that'd be the easiest way to do something like that over the phone.

Oh yes, because that's way easier. Not. It's more or less comparable.

This, along with other examples you've posted, indicates the problem clearly: you don't really know what you're doing, but you're pretty damn sure you're a power user.

I guess you're pretty damn sure every home user is using Linux by now.
Here's what I say: 91% of them can't all be wrong.


Because putting a short xrandr invocation in a script file on her desktop with the text "DOUBLE-CLICK ME IF THE SECOND MONITOR DIES AGAIN" is seriously hard work.

Finally, a good reason to use multiple desktops on Ubuntu!


OK, WTF is up with the forum whining about too many quote blocks? Is OVER NINE THOUSAND quotes in a single post one of the features I get with GDNet+?

Don't blame the forum for being "different" and enforcing that rule.
Thats perhaps true, but Ill also say for non-computer users the easiest (I hate it mind + I have one) is a mac (unix based OS)

That's so true. Even though I dislike macs, Mac OS X might even be better than Windows with respect to usability. That's me only speaking for the hundreds of non-computer wizards in my area.

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