Quote:Original post by Sneftel
It doesn't matter whether SDL is really well designed if your programming language has these caveats.
Tell me how with a C based API would I run into virtual anything.
Gamemaker or C?
Tell me how with a C based API would I run into virtual anything.
Quote:Original post by Lazy Foo
Tell me how with a C based would I run into virtual anything.
What the heck are you talking about? Virtual function binding was an example of the complexities of C++. C has its own complexities.
Quote:Original post by Lazy Foo
I say jump in the water and start off with C++. It worked for me and a lot of people on this forum.
What about all the people it didn't work out well for?
Quote:There's also 0 need to learn C++ if you want to work in the industry as a designer, artist, sound engineer, composer, producer, or tester. And I suspect there may even be some programmers at places like Crytek that don't use it all that often.
I'll concede that there's 0 need to learn C++ if you're not going to work in the industry.
Quote:But you can't prove that it's not important to know C++ when working professionally, that every ounce of a experience with the language isn't important, or that people that start out with other languages somehow in the long run turn out to be better programmers.Encouraging people to start off with game-making programs doesn't preclude them from learning C++ later. I don't advocate these programs because I think people shouldn't learn to program; I advocate them because I think that playing with them will help give people a much better "big picture" overview of how a game works, and that it will help them stay on-target when they eventually move on to programming for real.
Tell the truth programming can be complicated in any language. I use c++, java and I even started out with c++ but didn't find it hard to begin with until I hit data structures. I took a class so maybe I had an advantage. I have not run into many problem other than remembering a few things ,but I use my books to remember. GameMaker can be just as good as a choice than anything else and another one is clickteams multimedia fusion or jamagic which jamagic is a 3d game engine that uses java like programming. I bought "Beginninig Opengl for Game Programming" book (still reading and its great) and have also self taught withen a month or less to at least be able to set up a window on windows by code and MFC. I started trying to learn python which is not so bad because it really doesn't matter what language you learn first because the info you get from them can tranfer over to any other. there just may be a syntax change.
To answer Onan's question look at Clickteam and GameMaker thats what I did before I knew anything about game dev. or programming.
Programming for 2 years and still in school learning, barely started at 18yrs old and still trying to learn more in any language that's availiable when I have the chance. :)
To answer Onan's question look at Clickteam and GameMaker thats what I did before I knew anything about game dev. or programming.
Programming for 2 years and still in school learning, barely started at 18yrs old and still trying to learn more in any language that's availiable when I have the chance. :)
Quote:Original post by superpig
What about all the people it didn't work out well for?
Can you introduce me to them? and also show how using a different language would have improved their odds of success?
Quote:Original post by superpig
There's also 0 need to learn C++ if you want to work in the industry as a designer, artist, sound engineer, composer, producer, or tester. And I suspect there may even be some programmers at places like Crytek that don't use it all that often.
This whole thing is obviously assuming they want to become a game programmer.
Quote:Original post by superpig
Encouraging people to start off with game-making programs doesn't preclude them from learning C++ later. I don't advocate these programs because I think people shouldn't learn to program; I advocate them because I think that playing with them will help give people a much better "big picture" overview of how a game works, and that it will help them stay on-target when they eventually move on to programming for real.
This still doesn't say why later is better than sooner.
Well since the OP isn't going to come back any time soon and answer my questions, which he needs to because he's uninformed about a few things.... i'll address lazy foo [smile]
1) are you saying that because you learned C or C++ at an accelerated pace that everyone else will?
2) you realize you can be a game programmer (yes a professional one) and not use C or C++?
3) sometimes later is better than sooner, because people learn differently.
1) are you saying that because you learned C or C++ at an accelerated pace that everyone else will?
2) you realize you can be a game programmer (yes a professional one) and not use C or C++?
3) sometimes later is better than sooner, because people learn differently.
Quote:Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
1) are you saying that because you learned C or C++ at an accelerated pace that everyone else will?
Accelerated? Am I some freak because I managed to pick up C++ with minimal problems?
Quote:Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
2) you realize you can be a game programmer (yes a professional one) and not use C or C++?
Yes. Is someone without an extensive background in C++ more likely to get a job?
Hell look at this:
http://www.gamedev.net/gamejobs/default.asp?occupationid=4
Everywhere, C++ this, C++ that.
Quote:Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
3) sometimes later is better than sooner, because people learn differently.
But I say no matter who you are experience is the best teacher and 4 years with C++ is better than 3 years with C++.
I personally didn't find C++ very hard to pick up either (maybe since i had programmed in BASIC, Java, and C# before), but as I got into bigger APIs and more complex programming I did find it a bit discouraging with those huge long lists of error messages. The point is that not everyone actually has the willpower to try and solve the problem; most people I have tried to teach run into complicated stuff pretty quickly and it's difficult to encourage them to continue C++. When people start out, they just want to see some results but eventually they want to know the details etc, and thats the time to go into lower level languages. I think he should go with something like Java or C# first, then he can dive into C++.
Quote:Original post by Lazy FooNo. he/she is just saying that becuase you did, not everyone else will.
Accelerated? Am I some freak because I managed to pick up C++ with minimal problems?
Quote:Original post by Lazy Foo
Yes. Is someone without an extensive background in C++ more likely to get a job?
Hell look at this:
http://www.gamedev.net/gamejobs/default.asp?occupationid=4
Everywhere, C++ this, C++ that.
No disagreement there but remember that we haven't yet established that the OP wants to be a programmer or a games designer.
Quote:Original post by Lazy Foo
But I say no matter who you are experience is the best teacher and 4 years with C++ is better than 3 years with C++.
As long as the learning is reasonably structured learning the basics of programming (loops, functions etc) then to the C++ specific material pairing with the standard software development areas (eg OO design, code reuse etc) then yes, it could work out. However it also all depends on the OP intentions.
Admittedly, my second language was C++ after 2 months of pascal programming. It wasnt until the 3rd year till I truely 'got it' in terms of how I could use the lanaguage with software design.
OK. I wouldn't not recommend starting with C++. (i would not NOT reccomend, double negative). However, I disagree with a few things that Lazy Foo says. Firstly, you do encounter many errors with C++. Many. It's just that if, as soon as you start, you get these long strings of errors, you could become really confused. And, for many people, this can cause them to say, "This is too hard" and quit. These errors will come up, it's inevitable. However, with a few years programming experience, you either will not make these errors, will understand how to fix them, or will realise that they are fixable and will seek assistance.
Even though this is the case, starting off with another "simpler" programming language will not nessessaraly be any different. Hello World tutorials are pretty much the same everywhere (except for Java, shudder), and the errors you can encounter are quite numerous. C++, however, is one of the "big" ones, and thhere are so many different ways you can get things done, if your first tutorial fails, it's likely that your second will not answer your question about the first, but will teach you a different way of printing "hello world", which in turn can have its own problems.
However, this issue of having numerous ways of completing something in C++ is a very good thing. To me, C++ is everyone's language, which means that basically everyone's programming techniques are supported, and the uses for it are much greater than any others (an absolute, and therefore an egsageration, and yes I cannot spell), which is why C++ is great; want to make games, applications, whatever?
So, summing up, I believe that C++ is the ultimate destination for any aspiring programmer, however it may not be a bad thing to "ready the mind" for programming, or to build confidence in your abilities. My advice: try C++, then either keep going or (esp. if you fail early on) try another language (python may be good, never did any programming in it, but it is embeddable in C++, which is really good. PHP is an exellent starter) for a while. But the ultimate goal is probably C++.
Also, as for the game maker thing, I did use them for a little while (RPG Maker), and hated them, but it might be good for quickly showing ideas, or testing to see if you like a particular type of gameplay.
Even though this is the case, starting off with another "simpler" programming language will not nessessaraly be any different. Hello World tutorials are pretty much the same everywhere (except for Java, shudder), and the errors you can encounter are quite numerous. C++, however, is one of the "big" ones, and thhere are so many different ways you can get things done, if your first tutorial fails, it's likely that your second will not answer your question about the first, but will teach you a different way of printing "hello world", which in turn can have its own problems.
However, this issue of having numerous ways of completing something in C++ is a very good thing. To me, C++ is everyone's language, which means that basically everyone's programming techniques are supported, and the uses for it are much greater than any others (an absolute, and therefore an egsageration, and yes I cannot spell), which is why C++ is great; want to make games, applications, whatever?
So, summing up, I believe that C++ is the ultimate destination for any aspiring programmer, however it may not be a bad thing to "ready the mind" for programming, or to build confidence in your abilities. My advice: try C++, then either keep going or (esp. if you fail early on) try another language (python may be good, never did any programming in it, but it is embeddable in C++, which is really good. PHP is an exellent starter) for a while. But the ultimate goal is probably C++.
Also, as for the game maker thing, I did use them for a little while (RPG Maker), and hated them, but it might be good for quickly showing ideas, or testing to see if you like a particular type of gameplay.
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