Yeah, sorry I kinda hijacked the thread, but I would like to see a game where you aren't supposed to believe you're fightin' the good fight.
A WW2 shooter from the perspective of every side would add a lot depth to the game, in exploring the moral ambiguity created by war.
There was a game, Panzer General 2, that let you play as Nazi Germany, and even conquer the US, but it was a Turn-based Strategy game.
There are a lot of legal obstacles in making historically accurate games in some countries(Like how you can't mention Nazis very much in Germany).
european . . . .
How about a WWII game from the point of view of a French peasant? The object is to (a) not get shot, (b) not get blown up, (c) not get run over by a tank, and (d) not starve to death. If you win you get to keep what's left of your cow.
Sorry to interrupt you but... I won the war. Several times now, last one being Call Of Duty II. Maybe I get shot for betraying my home country, though.
It's a weird situation somehow. As long as the game lasts you don't exactly care who's the enemy... it's just another game and you're shooting enemies to proceed in the game. But thinking back now it comes to mind that all these pixel men are supposed to be germans. If I was born 50 years earlier than I actually am, I'd most propably be one of them. I don't have the illusion that I would be some resistance hero back then... a small light among the masses is more likely. So there are propably some million people out there that killed me virtually. Plus I've propably shot my virtual twin somewhere in virtual france while progressing through the game. Do I bother? Not exactly. Am I evil? I do not feel so, no, although others might judge otherwise.
Firstly, to me it simply shows that virtual events and real events don't link. Might be an interesting point to note in the present "Violence In Games" discussion taking place in Germany, but a single vote does not posess any statistical relevance. Secondly, what exactly is the reason then that there should be no game featuring a german soldier? To me it would feel... wrong to play a Nazi. It could be done in a MaxPayne style, with a lot of doubts and conflicts going on inside the character, but a morally simple game like Call Of Duty ... no I don't want to play this on the german side. Which raises the point why I didn't worried playing it on the allied side. After all, the overall actions are about the same: shooting and killing, without a lot of mercy for wounded enemy soldiers and all the other gruelties inescapably coming with a war.
I guess that's a private german problem. Judging from other posts in this thread, others wouldn't have a problem playing a Nazi if the role is designed right. Plus it's a bit far off of the topic of european gamers.
Bye, Thomas
It's a weird situation somehow. As long as the game lasts you don't exactly care who's the enemy... it's just another game and you're shooting enemies to proceed in the game. But thinking back now it comes to mind that all these pixel men are supposed to be germans. If I was born 50 years earlier than I actually am, I'd most propably be one of them. I don't have the illusion that I would be some resistance hero back then... a small light among the masses is more likely. So there are propably some million people out there that killed me virtually. Plus I've propably shot my virtual twin somewhere in virtual france while progressing through the game. Do I bother? Not exactly. Am I evil? I do not feel so, no, although others might judge otherwise.
Firstly, to me it simply shows that virtual events and real events don't link. Might be an interesting point to note in the present "Violence In Games" discussion taking place in Germany, but a single vote does not posess any statistical relevance. Secondly, what exactly is the reason then that there should be no game featuring a german soldier? To me it would feel... wrong to play a Nazi. It could be done in a MaxPayne style, with a lot of doubts and conflicts going on inside the character, but a morally simple game like Call Of Duty ... no I don't want to play this on the german side. Which raises the point why I didn't worried playing it on the allied side. After all, the overall actions are about the same: shooting and killing, without a lot of mercy for wounded enemy soldiers and all the other gruelties inescapably coming with a war.
I guess that's a private german problem. Judging from other posts in this thread, others wouldn't have a problem playing a Nazi if the role is designed right. Plus it's a bit far off of the topic of european gamers.
Bye, Thomas
One thing to note is that many people in Finland play games like Panzer General or Close Combat with Germans or Allied alike. Playing with Germans, people are in general thinking to be in Wehrmacht with Panzer Lehr, with Rommel, Guderian, Kleist or somesuch. The ideology is more aside and what matters is the brilliant tactics employed of the time and in some instances a superior combat gear and great aces, tank commanders or U-boat captains. Games like Civilization are also played with Russians with no problems (one thing to note Soviet Union is not the same as Russia, the two terms cannot be used interchangeably).
There probably is a great deal of moral objections on making a game from German perspective. As pointed out earlier, Max Payne styled game would be nice. With a storyline of a Gestapo or a (Waffen) SS officer doubting the morales or even better a Wehrmacht officer starting to have doubts about the system and what is going on in the home front leading even to Coup d'état as there were less succesful plans. Equally interesting would be a game from a Soviet perspective. I don't find the system was so bad especially in the US people are generally believing. (And actually, communism isn't the system there was in Soviet Union or there is in China, so the term is used inappropriately).
To those who didn't know, Finland fought in WW2 against Soviet Union and against Germany.
There probably is a great deal of moral objections on making a game from German perspective. As pointed out earlier, Max Payne styled game would be nice. With a storyline of a Gestapo or a (Waffen) SS officer doubting the morales or even better a Wehrmacht officer starting to have doubts about the system and what is going on in the home front leading even to Coup d'état as there were less succesful plans. Equally interesting would be a game from a Soviet perspective. I don't find the system was so bad especially in the US people are generally believing. (And actually, communism isn't the system there was in Soviet Union or there is in China, so the term is used inappropriately).
To those who didn't know, Finland fought in WW2 against Soviet Union and against Germany.
Quote:Original post by Naurava kulkuri
To those who didn't know, Finland fought in WW2 against Soviet Union and against Germany.
Alone against Soviet Union in Winter War, with Germans against Soviet Union in Continuation War and driving the German troops out of Finland after making a separate peace with Soviet Union, to be exact.
RTS, RPG, different kinds of simulations (no flight though) are close to my heart. Consoles feel generally too awkward to play with their thrice-damned mutated controllers.
I (being from east Europe) recently read (in a local gamer magazine interview with some local gamedev company) that developing for USA is easy for them since "Americans like to come home and shoot at things", and in Europe quality story is very important, and you have to localize for many languages. I think genre mentioned for Europe was RPG (but not 100% sure)
As to the topic: I do agree that it all has some average, but generally it's difficult to distinguish it for the whole Europe, because of the differences between various European countries. For instance MMORPGs (especially the monthly paid ones) are far more popular in the Western Europe than they are in the Eastern Europe.
As to one or two things...
I see that you're from USA, that explains quite a lot. And yes a game with Soviets as the enemies (something new?) would be an instant hit in some countries of Eastern Europe, because of an unfocused hatred towards the Soviet Union. But you know what? I personally get sick of American-protagonist-games, American-hero-games, Americans-winning-the-war games and all related. Not only because many of these are very naive, but also, due to the fact they all follow the same pattern. It so happens that most of the war burden lied on the shoulders of the English first and then on the shoulders of the Soviets. USA just happily made money on resource and weapons trading, until they had no choice, but to counter attack the Japanese. The so famous (in movies, games) D-Day was delayed as long as it could be and was only started, because the Russians were closing in on Berlin too fast.
Speaking of D-Day. You say that Russian commanders were bad? Yes, they were, exactly because of what you've said - 1936 and later purges, as well as the rearrangment of the Red Army in 1940-1941. But it seems the Yankee commanders weren't that better, when it came to fighting the Germans face to face, instead of bombing their cities - just count your dead on the beaches of Normandy and explore the chaos of the Market Garden. To your information, Soviet troops were battling for every street, every house, every bloody room for three years before the Americans came to Europe.
Neither you nor I am in a position to judge anyone who fought in the II World War, but especially you, sitting in cosy little (right, big enough) USA, which did not suffer WW II as many other countries, many nations did. There are three cementaries in my city, just a few kilometeres from where I live. Soviet troops who liberated my city and my country are buried there, hundreads of them, if not thousands. You might just show a little respect to people who lost their lifes to fight off the nazis and stop what they did to Europe and the rest of the world. We here still feel the consequences of WW II.
Sorry to be getting historic where I should be getting game desining, but as readers, who were corageous enought to get through my text, see, cultural and historical differences can be a major factor if it comes to games and other works of art. If someone hates the soviets, he might be glad to get the game based on shooting the soviets as an american hero, but some people get sick of it for different reasons, including the historical (usually twisted) context, personal feelings, memories, views or something else.
Just to get one thing straight for the end - there is no good or evil. Every country and nation has its wrongdoings, and the list gets very long for Germans, Russians, Americans and everyone else.
[Edited by - Domx on July 24, 2007 12:00:06 AM]
As to one or two things...
Quote:I want to see a real Eastern Front game, that'd be better because who the bad guys are supposed to be is a moot question.
They both are the bad guys. Easy as pie.
I see that you're from USA, that explains quite a lot. And yes a game with Soviets as the enemies (something new?) would be an instant hit in some countries of Eastern Europe, because of an unfocused hatred towards the Soviet Union. But you know what? I personally get sick of American-protagonist-games, American-hero-games, Americans-winning-the-war games and all related. Not only because many of these are very naive, but also, due to the fact they all follow the same pattern. It so happens that most of the war burden lied on the shoulders of the English first and then on the shoulders of the Soviets. USA just happily made money on resource and weapons trading, until they had no choice, but to counter attack the Japanese. The so famous (in movies, games) D-Day was delayed as long as it could be and was only started, because the Russians were closing in on Berlin too fast.
Speaking of D-Day. You say that Russian commanders were bad? Yes, they were, exactly because of what you've said - 1936 and later purges, as well as the rearrangment of the Red Army in 1940-1941. But it seems the Yankee commanders weren't that better, when it came to fighting the Germans face to face, instead of bombing their cities - just count your dead on the beaches of Normandy and explore the chaos of the Market Garden. To your information, Soviet troops were battling for every street, every house, every bloody room for three years before the Americans came to Europe.
Neither you nor I am in a position to judge anyone who fought in the II World War, but especially you, sitting in cosy little (right, big enough) USA, which did not suffer WW II as many other countries, many nations did. There are three cementaries in my city, just a few kilometeres from where I live. Soviet troops who liberated my city and my country are buried there, hundreads of them, if not thousands. You might just show a little respect to people who lost their lifes to fight off the nazis and stop what they did to Europe and the rest of the world. We here still feel the consequences of WW II.
Sorry to be getting historic where I should be getting game desining, but as readers, who were corageous enought to get through my text, see, cultural and historical differences can be a major factor if it comes to games and other works of art. If someone hates the soviets, he might be glad to get the game based on shooting the soviets as an american hero, but some people get sick of it for different reasons, including the historical (usually twisted) context, personal feelings, memories, views or something else.
Just to get one thing straight for the end - there is no good or evil. Every country and nation has its wrongdoings, and the list gets very long for Germans, Russians, Americans and everyone else.
[Edited by - Domx on July 24, 2007 12:00:06 AM]
Quote:Original post by Domx
I see that you're from USA, that explains quite a lot. And yes a game with Soviets as the enemies (something new?) would be an instant hit in some countries of Eastern Europe, because of an unfocused hatred towards the Soviet Union.
Good, so at least my game would sell.
Quote: But you know what? I personally get sick of American-protagonist-games, American-hero-games, Americans-winning-the-war games and all related. Not only because many of these are very naive, but also, due to the fact they all follow the same pattern. It so happens that most of the war burden lied on the shoulders of the English first and then on the shoulders of the Soviets. USA just happily made money on resource and weapons trading, until they had no choice, but to counter attack the Japanese. The so famous (in movies, games) D-Day was delayed as long as it could be and was only started, because the Russians were closing in on Berlin too fast.
I also hate the idiotic "American is teh BEST" games, because they provide such a narrow view of the war. Watching the History Channel is painful because of it's huge slant... I swear if I hear another word about the P-51 being the best fighter Evar, I am going to hurt someone.
I'm pretty sure we forgave a lot of the debt of Britain after the war.
D-Day is pretty overrated, it's always "The largest amphibious operation in history," not "The largest battle," as that title could apply to several battles on the eastern front before D-day.
Quote:
Speaking of D-Day. You say that Russian commanders were bad? Yes, they were, exactly because of what you've said - 1936 and later purges, as well as the rearrangment of the Red Army in 1940-1941. But it seems the Yankee commanders weren't that better, when it came to fighting the Germans face to face, instead of bombing their cities - just count your dead on the beaches of Normandy and explore the chaos of the Market Garden. To your information, Soviet troops were battling for every street, every house, every bloody room for three years before the Americans came to Europe.
I'm fully aware of that, but I also know that the Soviet Union may have killed almost as many or more of it's own citizens than were killed by Nazis through ill-planned agricultural schemes and intense political oppression for 20 some years before the war started.
The primary reason the US was able to advance in the west was because the vast majority of German forces were fighting the Soviet Union, the second reason being overwhelming allied air cover. Division for division, the Wehrmacht was #1, something that is very oft overlooked.
Quote:
Neither you nor I am in a position to judge anyone who fought in the II World War, but especially you, sitting in cosy little (right, big enough) USA, which did not suffer WW II as many other countries, many nations did. There are three cementaries in my city, just a few kilometeres from where I live. Soviet troops who liberated my city and my country are buried there, hundreads of them, if not thousands. You might just show a little respect to people who lost their lifes to fight off the nazis and stop what they did to Europe and the rest of the world. We here still feel the consequences of WW II.
Again, just because they were fighting Nazis doesn't mean they were doing heroic work in the purest interest of humanity. The German soldiers in Berlin could claim to be fighting for their homeland as much as anyone.
From what I have learned, it seems that Poland suffered the worst fate of all in WW2, being invaded by the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, then totally invaded and occupied by Germany, then invaded('liberated' is not a term I would use) by the Soviet Union. Home Army units were captured and imprisoned by the NKVD after having supposedly fought with the Soviets against the Nazis, and before that, there was the Katyn massacre.
The United States was a victor in WW2, but not through any incomparable sacrifice or leadership. Other countries suffered much more and gained much less.
Quote:
Sorry to be getting historic where I should be getting game desining, but as readers, who were corageous enought to get through my text, see, cultural and historical differences can be a major factor if it comes to games and other works of art. If someone hates the soviets, he might be glad to get the game based on shooting the soviets as an american hero, but some people get sick of it for different reasons, including the historical (usually twisted) context, personal feelings, memories, views or something else.
The game I'm theorizing on wouldn't really have a hero at all, it would show the point of view of every side, in turn revealing the failings of all of them.
Quote:
Just to get one thing straight for the end - there is no good or evil. Every country and nation has its wrongdoings, and the list gets very long for Germans, Russians, Americans and everyone else.
Good or evil... I would say there is no such thing as a side being "the Good Guys" or a side being "the Bad Guys." If that's what you are trying to say, then I totally agree.
Quote:Original post by Domx
I see that you're from USA, that explains quite a lot. And yes a game with Soviets as the enemies (something new?) would be an instant hit in some countries of Eastern Europe, because of an unfocused hatred towards the Soviet Union. But you know what? I personally get sick of American-protagonist-games, American-hero-games, Americans-winning-the-war games and all related. Not only because many of these are very naive, but also, due to the fact they all follow the same pattern.
Anyway it gets pretty tired soon. What strikes me the most in WWII games and such is the gross inaccuracy. The best aces are always from the USA (check the list on WW2) best submarine commanders are from USA, best tank commanders are from USA etc.
We can always argue if Patton or MacArthur were the most brilliant leaders of all time, but that would go in vain and we'd miss the point. Games seem to be tailored for the markets in which they are expected to sell well. I can only tell that even though I don't really play that much games these days, all of my friends play mods or in general not as "Team America" but something else (even friends abroad).
This more often than not brings in the dualistic view of world in the people I happen to know from USA that don't we like to be on the same side or something. That's silly. My patriotism goes elsewhere and as mentioned: enough is enough. In general, if it's one's own history and heroes, it is soon irrelevant.
(To bring out a second view that games aren't probably played as the creators assume.)
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