Quote:Original post by Kylotan
Unfortunately I don't think it's a good approach to take for OpenGL and Python because most people won't want to click through to a low-traffic forum that often.

Right...

Quote:Original post by Geometrian
It's not that, I was thinking more that C programmers should ask OpenGL program questions to people who understand their code; namely other C programmers. Ditto for other languages.

I don't know about you, but despite the fact that I'm primarily a C++ programmer, I can read and understand most other procedural languages well enough to be able to help someone out with them - especially if their question isn't about the language but about something they're trying to do with it. Vertices, primitives, matrices, render states, shaders - these things are all language-agnostic, and they're what the questions tend to be about.

If it's really so alien to me that I can't make head nor tail of it, then I won't answer, but it's likely that encountering such a language will spur me to look up and read an overview of it anyway. Next time I see it I might be able to help.

A good programmer knows a number of languages and can comprehend a number more. And fortunately we have quite a number of good programmers around here...

But you are primarily a C++ programmer, so that is the language you understand best. Having separate forums would encourage people who know only one language to seek help in one forum. But there's nothing stopping people like you from helping other people in other forums. This would also eliminate problems like people forgetting which language they're talking about, double posting, and unanswered topics being on the next page in a few minutes due to the dispersed traffic.
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Quote:Original post by Geometrian
But you are primarily a C++ programmer, so that is the language you understand best. Having separate forums would encourage people who know only one language to seek help in one forum.

Except that it doesn't matter that they only know one language - it's the people answering the questions who need to know their language, and there are lots of people here who are in the same position as me - able to at least comprehend a large number of languages.

So, sure, it's perhaps not clear to the original poster whether they should post their PyOpenGL question in 'Python' or 'OpenGL,' but if they just pick one and post it there, people will quickly be able to tell them, and moderators will be able to move the topic if necessary. (The tagging solution we'll be implementing in the future will allow one topic to effectively show up in both of those forums, which solves the problem pretty neatly).

Quote:But there's nothing stopping people like you from helping other people in other forums.

No, but if I have to browse to a whole separate forum to answer questions about PyOpenGL, I'm much less likely to actually do it. (Granted, that's not a problem for people who browse the site using views like Active Topics).

Quote:This would also eliminate problems like people forgetting which language they're talking about,

..? Not sure what you mean by that.

Quote:double posting,

Easily fixed by moderators explaining to people that they should just pick one and post there.

Quote:and unanswered topics being on the next page in a few minutes due to the dispersed traffic.

Not a problem for people who browse the site using Active Topics, though I acknowledge that this is a general problem - the sheer volume of questions that the site can generate is not easily consumed. Things like Active Topics can help this, but going forward I'm looking for nicer solutions, e.g. gathering some data about the things that people are 'proficient' in and finding topics that match those proficiencies (i.e. are tagged with the same things) but currently have a lower average level of them across the existing replies. The result would be a system that finds you topics about things you're good at that don't already have someone knowledgeable posting in them (i.e. are probably unanswered).

Obviously that's not the only system that would be employed but it's the kind of thing I think we can do.

Offtopic somewhat, what happens to forum-specific moderators? Do they all become 'general' moderators or do they moderate over the fixed saved-searches?

Quote:Original post by superpig

Quote:This would also eliminate problems like people forgetting which language they're talking about,

..? Not sure what you mean by that.

If you were in the Python forum, it would be harder to forget that the code discussed is Python instead of slipping into another language, (usually C++). I've seen this happen before.

Quote:Original post by superpig

Quote:double posting,

Easily fixed by moderators explaining to people that they should just pick one and post there.

Yes, but it wouldn't happen in the first place...

Quote:Original post by dmatter
Offtopic somewhat, what happens to forum-specific moderators? Do they all become 'general' moderators or do they moderate over the fixed saved-searches?

I'm not sure about that one yet. I suspect they would all become 'general' moderators, though if anyone has a convincing use case as to the contrary, I'd be happy to consider alternatives.

Quote:Original post by Geometrian
If you were in the Python forum, it would be harder to forget that the code discussed is Python instead of slipping into another language, (usually C++). I've seen this happen before.

Heh, I see. To be honest, I'm not convinced that "being in the Python forum" would make it any harder to forget which language you're supposed to be answering in - if you're not paying enough attention to the OP to see which language they're using then you're probably not going to be looking at which forum you're in either. Besides, how do you know the people in question actually forgot, as opposed to assuming that the OP would be able to understand the language they were using?

Quote:Yes, but it wouldn't happen in the first place...

Oh, it still would. People would simply fail to find the PyOpenGL forum, posting in at least one of the other two.

As I've said, the solution - which we will implement, eventually - is tagging.

Quote:Original post by superpig
As I've said, the solution - which we will implement, eventually - is tagging.

How exactly does that work? (And yes, I know that's the way it will be, but theoretically):

Quote:Original post by superpig
Oh, it still would. People would simply fail to find the PyOpenGL forum, posting in at least one of the other two.

How is that? If people are faced with a choice between a "PyOpenGL Forum" and the "C++ OpenGL Forum", if it's a C++ question go to the C++ forum and vice-versa. People aren't that stupid, especially given the above-average intelligence of most programmers...

Quote:Original post by superpig
To be honest, I'm not convinced that "being in the Python forum" would make it any harder to forget which language you're supposed to be answering in - if you're not paying enough attention to the OP to see which language they're using then you're probably not going to be looking at which forum you're in either.

True...

Quote:Original post by superpig
how do you know the people in question actually forgot, as opposed to assuming that the OP would be able to understand the language they were using?

A while ago, I made a post in the OpenGL forum, requesting that any code be in Python, but it was soon ignored until another Python programmer posted and reminded them. It could be argued, however, that this was an unusual case, though as someone has said, PyOpenGL programmers are, by definition, rare to begin with.

G

Quote:Original post by Geometrian
How exactly does that work?

I've posted some notes about the design of the system in my journal - all feedback is appreciated.

Quote:How is that? If people are faced with a choice between a "PyOpenGL Forum" and the "C++ OpenGL Forum", if it's a C++ question go to the C++ forum and vice-versa. People aren't that stupid, especially given the above-average intelligence of most programmers...

You'd be amazed how intelligent people can be utterly lacking in common sense. [grin] I'd give that argument some weight were it not for the fact that people already post things in the wrong forums even when the right forum is fairly clear. Besides, what makes language such a great classification for the taxonomy? Perhaps we should have '2D OpenGL' and '3D OpenGL', or 'Simple Rendering' and 'Complex Rendering', or 'API issues' and 'Graphics Theory' (oh, wait)... there are a whole bunch of different ways you could cut it. Ultimately it doesn't work because the classifications we want aren't hierarchical. 'C++' and 'Python' are not subcategories of 'OpenGL.'

Quote:
A while ago, I made a post in the OpenGL forum, requesting that any code be in Python, but it was soon ignored until another Python programmer posted and reminded them. It could be argued, however, that this was an unusual case, though as someone has said, PyOpenGL programmers are, by definition, rare to begin with.

I would agree that this is unusual; I think I may have seen it happen a couple of times, but that's in my reading of the forum over six years. [smile] I would suspect, as well, that it's less that people forgot which language you asked for, but more than they don't know the language well enough to write in it themselves yet still wanted to try and help you. Was there nothing helpful in the non-Python replies that you received?