- What's the most complicated program you've ever written?
- What framework are you going to use?
If they can't answer either one adequately, then it's time for THE TALK[sup]TM[/sup].
Realistic Encouragement vs Trolling Tear-down
I don't think it's wrong to ask two questions:
If they can't answer either one adequately, then it's time for THE TALK[sup]TM[/sup].
If they can't answer either one adequately, then it's time for THE TALK[sup]TM[/sup].
I wish that someone would stick this to the top of the beginner forum! 
People have encouraged me who really did not have much talent or experience but by shear determination and hard work made progress. At the other end of the spectrum, who is to say if some genius in the rough (like diamond in the rough) game developer isn't right here in the Beginner forum making their first posts? ( Mistakes and oversights included )
There are all types of people in here. This thread sends a good message to everyone. We who are good natured need to support one another and the community with strong unity, so I say G.R.E.A.T post, Lance!
3Ddreamer
People have encouraged me who really did not have much talent or experience but by shear determination and hard work made progress. At the other end of the spectrum, who is to say if some genius in the rough (like diamond in the rough) game developer isn't right here in the Beginner forum making their first posts? ( Mistakes and oversights included )
There are all types of people in here. This thread sends a good message to everyone. We who are good natured need to support one another and the community with strong unity, so I say G.R.E.A.T post, Lance!
3Ddreamer
I think a reality check isn't something negative in general, but the way you put it makes it negative or positive. Everybody has a dream and who are you/we to tear it down? The "I want to make the next best MMO" is probably one of the most common beginner trends out there at the moment and all we can do is give them their reality check!
But instead of going bashing them to the ground, shattering their dreams ruthlessly by telling them it's a stupid idea, provide constructive feedback and alternatives for them to work with! Can't be bothered to give that feedback? Don't respond! It's simple as that! You wouldn't like to be bashed down with your idea if you come here to learn right? Treat others like you want to be treated yourself. Doesn't mean you have to lie, but the way you bring something can do a lot to and for a person.
I also don't see the problem with people willing to make the next MMO. It's their dream, you have to start somewhere and perhaps it is aimed way to high for 9 out of 10 people, but you can't learn how to walk without falling down a couple of times. Perhaps you would like to see them walking without falling, let them take baby steps and sure, that is fine for those who want to take the hand that guides them, but obviously that is not how everybody works.
I say; Let them try to walk, let them fall! Let them learn! Some people simply need to fall a couple of times before they take your hand and listen to what you have to say and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
So to all you beginners out there, don't be afraid fall down, but don't be afraid to take that hand when it's presented to you. Live you dream, try to run and don't give up!
But instead of going bashing them to the ground, shattering their dreams ruthlessly by telling them it's a stupid idea, provide constructive feedback and alternatives for them to work with! Can't be bothered to give that feedback? Don't respond! It's simple as that! You wouldn't like to be bashed down with your idea if you come here to learn right? Treat others like you want to be treated yourself. Doesn't mean you have to lie, but the way you bring something can do a lot to and for a person.
I also don't see the problem with people willing to make the next MMO. It's their dream, you have to start somewhere and perhaps it is aimed way to high for 9 out of 10 people, but you can't learn how to walk without falling down a couple of times. Perhaps you would like to see them walking without falling, let them take baby steps and sure, that is fine for those who want to take the hand that guides them, but obviously that is not how everybody works.
I say; Let them try to walk, let them fall! Let them learn! Some people simply need to fall a couple of times before they take your hand and listen to what you have to say and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
So to all you beginners out there, don't be afraid fall down, but don't be afraid to take that hand when it's presented to you. Live you dream, try to run and don't give up!
My message is for the downtrodden who now feel their GameDev dream is out of reach, who are frustrated and considering giving up, and who might be feeling that perhaps the mean-hearted claims of those mentioned above are correct. Don't give up. Yes, there are realities and requirements that you must satisfy before you're ready to get a job at that big game company, or to start your own game studio, or whatever your dream is, but if you want it badly enough, then you wont let the nay-sayers tell you what you can and can't do. Did you know the Walt Disney was fired by a newspaper editor because he "lacked imagination and had no good ideas"?
I see something similar at my local Boxing Gym constantly. Younger guys than me come, are full of hopes, dreams and ambition. They want their first fight as soon as possible. Then they lose and I never see them again.
Why? They saw themselfes in the ring, their opponent lying on the floor and a beatiful woman giving them their champion belt and her phone number. It wasn't the Martial Arts they were so passionate about. And when realizing that they aren't the next Mohammed Ali and it may be harder to get good than they thought, they leave.
The same thing seems to happen to beginners here, they come, think they have the next new supergame in hand and after they implemented it, they can start their own game studio etc.
When they look at their results and see that they aren't anywhere near 3A quality, most of them give up.
both boxing and gamedev are extremely fun, but not for everybody. And even fewer people get so good at it that they can become a professional.
Yes, there are stories from personalities such as Walt Disney, Bill Gates and Einstein. But chances are, you are neither of those, you are just a normal guy. There might be the next legendary gamedeveloper lurking around in the beginner section, but treating all beginners this way seems wrong to me.
Don't be a dick, be realistic. Encourage somebody to have a look at tutorials, give tutorials when needed, but more encouragement is misplaced I think. If somebody is discouraged by this, he/she would have abandoned game programming anyways later on. I cannot imagine you discourage the guy/girl who just likes to develop a game, who doesn't really care about success. In the end, those are the people with potential, the people who stay.
In my point of view, "reality checkers" (like you seem to call them on that thread), are people who felt, got back up, and just got desillusioned the hard way. In the end, they want other people to avoid that if possible, but there is a tendency to be rough in THE TALK™, because of memories of those harsh days.
When I felt, there was no such thing as gamedev.net yet, I wanted to reproduce half life (not better, just the same), never managed it (say 5%, over 5 years, non intensive). Even though I had already a history of 4 years of programming and many little games (some actually finished, even !).
So you can see why this can be painful, and because of that we prefer to stop others right there.
Then, everything resides in the 'way it is put'.
When I felt, there was no such thing as gamedev.net yet, I wanted to reproduce half life (not better, just the same), never managed it (say 5%, over 5 years, non intensive). Even though I had already a history of 4 years of programming and many little games (some actually finished, even !).
So you can see why this can be painful, and because of that we prefer to stop others right there.
Then, everything resides in the 'way it is put'.
Programming is difficult. Programming games is even more difficult, requiring knowledge from many domains. Programming a MMO is maybe the hardest programming you can do.
I like to encourage beginners. Instead of pointing out all major project high risks, it is good to point to the "next step".
A games project can generally end up in two ways. Either as a success, or as a failure. And I believe the best way to learn is from your failures. (someone said that only geniuses learn from other's failures). You can't appreciate some design patterns if you haven't first found the mistakes that shows what the problem really is about.
To summarize: If someone wants to start programming games, he or she will almost certainly learn a lot. That is a good thing, and something that should be encouraged. A reality check is not important unless you are into "real money".
I like to encourage beginners. Instead of pointing out all major project high risks, it is good to point to the "next step".
A games project can generally end up in two ways. Either as a success, or as a failure. And I believe the best way to learn is from your failures. (someone said that only geniuses learn from other's failures). You can't appreciate some design patterns if you haven't first found the mistakes that shows what the problem really is about.
To summarize: If someone wants to start programming games, he or she will almost certainly learn a lot. That is a good thing, and something that should be encouraged. A reality check is not important unless you are into "real money".
Yes, there are stories from personalities such as Walt Disney, Bill Gates and Einstein. But chances are, you are neither of those, you are just a normal guy.
What? I'm not special? My mom lied to me!
There's the rule of 10,000 hours as well. Some of us really are actually really good developers; but we've spent years and years working to get to this place. People who've read a book and written a ten-liner just aren't going to build stuff. Not without going through that 10,000 hour learning curve. Now, there's no reason why your dream game isn't at the end of that process for you, but it's a painful way to do things and you'll probably end up hating it long before 10k hours.
A lot of people show up with concepts for the game they want to play. But the news is that you ain't ever playing it. Even if you write it, you'll spend the rest of your time *running* it. I went to movie writing class once. It's a pain of a course to get onto -- turns out those of us on the year long writing course get priority. Week 1 is always scheduled in this huge lecture room. 50 seater room for the 20 people subscribed because people bring their friends, people show up on spec... this guy walks in carrying a HUGE folder of notes and talks for two solid hours about three-act structures, plot-point systems and so on. For those of us who are there to learn to write movies it's BRILLIANT. For the people who just want to have written a killer movie without going through the intervening hard work places... well, lets just say that weeks 2 onwards of the course are apparently habitually scheduled in much smaller rooms. I think four of us completed the course in the end (by submitting a pitch, a plot outline and at least 30 pages of a properly formed movie script).
{It was even harder for me, because I lost my temper with the text editors to hand and had to write a tool for typesetting movie scripts in C++ before doing much of the writing...}
Too many people want to have written a cool game, whereas generally successful game devs are interested in the actual writing of games process and the cool, if it happens at all, happens by accident.
A lot of people show up with concepts for the game they want to play. But the news is that you ain't ever playing it. Even if you write it, you'll spend the rest of your time *running* it. I went to movie writing class once. It's a pain of a course to get onto -- turns out those of us on the year long writing course get priority. Week 1 is always scheduled in this huge lecture room. 50 seater room for the 20 people subscribed because people bring their friends, people show up on spec... this guy walks in carrying a HUGE folder of notes and talks for two solid hours about three-act structures, plot-point systems and so on. For those of us who are there to learn to write movies it's BRILLIANT. For the people who just want to have written a killer movie without going through the intervening hard work places... well, lets just say that weeks 2 onwards of the course are apparently habitually scheduled in much smaller rooms. I think four of us completed the course in the end (by submitting a pitch, a plot outline and at least 30 pages of a properly formed movie script).
{It was even harder for me, because I lost my temper with the text editors to hand and had to write a tool for typesetting movie scripts in C++ before doing much of the writing...}
Too many people want to have written a cool game, whereas generally successful game devs are interested in the actual writing of games process and the cool, if it happens at all, happens by accident.
I have a feeling I am going to get downvoted for this post.
Part 1: My Defense
I feel as if I might be one of those who contributed towards your idea that sometimes people here are pretty harsh and discouraging.
I wouldn’t say it is my reputation, but it is not really uncommon for me to post a reply in the “Breaking into the Industry” section that is extremely discouraging. I have flat-out said to some people that they have no business in the industry.
I can’t speak for everyone who says things like this, but as for myself, I say these kinds of things because I believe it and because it feels as though I am doing my part in making the game industry a better place.
I say it to people who make me feel as if they have the wrong idea about what making games means.
“I studied accounting but I heard game programmers [in America] make more so I thought I would switch. At which school should I study?”
I enhanced their grammar here but the basic idea is a person who is just in it for the money. There are a few other examples (see link above for one), but all of them feel unworthy of actual game-making practice.
I discourage them because we don’t need them in the industry. Or the industry doesn’t need them.
I can’t find all the links now, but I can say with certainty that all of the people I have discouraged were because I felt that they were nothing but a disservice to the industry as a whole. I would hate myself if I let them become a major figure in the industry and lead it into some corporate direction that was all about the money.
Part 2: Blind Faith
I am a programmer but I also play classical piano professionally (my classical performances have been used in movies, my original works used in games) and I draw photorealistically. On my deviantArt page you can find many pencil drawings (and no photographs).
In the world of art I see this mentality a lot. Artists encouraging other artists blindly.
Everyone just rambles on about how you can do anything with practice. Just practice practice practice.
But that is just blind encouragement. The frank fact is that I have spent fewer than 300 hours of my entire life (30 hours per year) drawing things. I know people on deviantArt whose lives revolve around art and have spent over 10,000 hours drawing, but will never ever be as realistic.
Certain people excel at certain things. Period.
I don’t believe in—and I strongly detest—giving people false hope. This is basically the point of your post.
Actually I can’t speak for every person who has been shot down, but in my experience only people who needed to be shot down were shot down.
I have a bad reputation on deviantArt because I am (seemingly) the only one willing to give people bad news. Artists really hate that. And I may get downvoted, but I stand by what I believe. Some people need to be discouraged. Some people are not fit for the job.
Which leads me to part 3.
Part 3: Blind Encouragement
I don’t believe in this.
You have a +25 last time I checked. Congratulations. The highest upvoting I have ever seen.
But in my experience (and I could be wrong), most people who got discouraged were discouraged for a reason. Part #1 explains why I feel that way. I know I am a major offender when it comes to discouraging people but there is always a reason why. For every person I have discouraged I have encouraged 3 or 4 more. That is close to the ratio I would expect.
But your post is open. It is for everyone. That is just wrong. Because no matter how optimistic you are, you can agree that not everyone is really suitable for the game industry. It is not just my theory but actual experience.
In one of my previous companies we hired a game designer. That was his only skill. My job was to mentor him but despite my best efforts he really was a flunky. As it turned out, he wasn’t really a game designer. He was a chef. That’s right, he left our company and became a chef.
When you send out a blind letter of encouragement to everyone who has ever dreamed of getting into the game industry, these are the people you are reaching. He was a damned chef, not a game designer.
You can’t just spew out all these words of encouragement. They reach the wrong people.
People who are fit for the industry don’t need this type of encouragement. People who aren’t do, and all you are doing is helping the wrong people get into the wrong business.
Part #4: Different Points of View
You also have to keep in mind that it is only a simplistic view in which people ask for help on a forum and get entirely the same response on a subjective matter.
What is the best way to do this? What is the best way to do that?
If it is subjective, the best help anyone can get is from multiple different standpoints.
Some people need to encourage, some people need to discourage. If both sides represent themselves well, then both are beneficial to the original poster who can then take into considerations the cons and pros and make his or her own decision.
I already stated that I disagreed with your post due to blind encouragement, but I also disagree because it promotes a “1 side is correct in all situations” approach.
The reality is that many people have personal issues they want to consider but don’t mention those when asking questions. If both sides explain themselves well enough, the poster will be able to make a better decision based on his or her personal situation at the time. The pro side or con side may not have known about that personal issue, but just because he or she was thorough in presenting his or her side the original poster can make a better decision.
The good comes with the bad. It is not really about people discouraging others.
Honestly, both sides of any question should be presented and considered.
Part #5: Finally
Sorry, but frankly when I was younger there was never any question about my future in the games industry.
I may sound cold-hearted and get downvoted, but the simple fact is that I would have shrugged off anyone who said I was unfit for the industry.
The people who have it have it. Those who don’t don’t.
It my sound arrogant to say that it was never a questionable matter to me—I was going to be in the industry and that was final—but if my story is similar to anyone else’s, those people don’t really care about any discouraging words people may give.
The target audience for this message is slim.
Most people who belong in the industry don’t get discouraged. If they really belong, they come off as such and get treated as such.
The few who get misunderstood and then “bullied”, well, if they really belong then it doesn’t matter to them that some person online said otherwise.
They just know.
I know you want to combat trolls, but your message is an open letter. It is not as if someone is going to read your words of encouragement and then say, “Wait, was I previously discouraged by a troll? No? Okay disregard all those encouraging words I just read; those were just for people who had previously been trolled”.
Some people—and especially chefs in my experience—do not belong in the industry. It is a simple fact that discouragement can be healthy and can be the correct course of action.
Just as in art, encouragement and practice do not in fact a pro make. You aren’t going to draw photorealistically no matter how hard you practice, and practice also can’t make you an expert game designer or programmer. Some people are made for certain things and they need to just stay within those domains. Discouragement really is necessary sometimes.
L. Spiro
Part 1: My Defense
I feel as if I might be one of those who contributed towards your idea that sometimes people here are pretty harsh and discouraging.
I wouldn’t say it is my reputation, but it is not really uncommon for me to post a reply in the “Breaking into the Industry” section that is extremely discouraging. I have flat-out said to some people that they have no business in the industry.
I can’t speak for everyone who says things like this, but as for myself, I say these kinds of things because I believe it and because it feels as though I am doing my part in making the game industry a better place.
I say it to people who make me feel as if they have the wrong idea about what making games means.
“I studied accounting but I heard game programmers [in America] make more so I thought I would switch. At which school should I study?”
I enhanced their grammar here but the basic idea is a person who is just in it for the money. There are a few other examples (see link above for one), but all of them feel unworthy of actual game-making practice.
I discourage them because we don’t need them in the industry. Or the industry doesn’t need them.
I can’t find all the links now, but I can say with certainty that all of the people I have discouraged were because I felt that they were nothing but a disservice to the industry as a whole. I would hate myself if I let them become a major figure in the industry and lead it into some corporate direction that was all about the money.
Part 2: Blind Faith
I am a programmer but I also play classical piano professionally (my classical performances have been used in movies, my original works used in games) and I draw photorealistically. On my deviantArt page you can find many pencil drawings (and no photographs).
In the world of art I see this mentality a lot. Artists encouraging other artists blindly.
Everyone just rambles on about how you can do anything with practice. Just practice practice practice.
But that is just blind encouragement. The frank fact is that I have spent fewer than 300 hours of my entire life (30 hours per year) drawing things. I know people on deviantArt whose lives revolve around art and have spent over 10,000 hours drawing, but will never ever be as realistic.
Certain people excel at certain things. Period.
I don’t believe in—and I strongly detest—giving people false hope. This is basically the point of your post.
Actually I can’t speak for every person who has been shot down, but in my experience only people who needed to be shot down were shot down.
I have a bad reputation on deviantArt because I am (seemingly) the only one willing to give people bad news. Artists really hate that. And I may get downvoted, but I stand by what I believe. Some people need to be discouraged. Some people are not fit for the job.
Which leads me to part 3.
Part 3: Blind Encouragement
I don’t believe in this.
You have a +25 last time I checked. Congratulations. The highest upvoting I have ever seen.
But in my experience (and I could be wrong), most people who got discouraged were discouraged for a reason. Part #1 explains why I feel that way. I know I am a major offender when it comes to discouraging people but there is always a reason why. For every person I have discouraged I have encouraged 3 or 4 more. That is close to the ratio I would expect.
But your post is open. It is for everyone. That is just wrong. Because no matter how optimistic you are, you can agree that not everyone is really suitable for the game industry. It is not just my theory but actual experience.
In one of my previous companies we hired a game designer. That was his only skill. My job was to mentor him but despite my best efforts he really was a flunky. As it turned out, he wasn’t really a game designer. He was a chef. That’s right, he left our company and became a chef.
When you send out a blind letter of encouragement to everyone who has ever dreamed of getting into the game industry, these are the people you are reaching. He was a damned chef, not a game designer.
You can’t just spew out all these words of encouragement. They reach the wrong people.
People who are fit for the industry don’t need this type of encouragement. People who aren’t do, and all you are doing is helping the wrong people get into the wrong business.
Part #4: Different Points of View
You also have to keep in mind that it is only a simplistic view in which people ask for help on a forum and get entirely the same response on a subjective matter.
What is the best way to do this? What is the best way to do that?
If it is subjective, the best help anyone can get is from multiple different standpoints.
Some people need to encourage, some people need to discourage. If both sides represent themselves well, then both are beneficial to the original poster who can then take into considerations the cons and pros and make his or her own decision.
I already stated that I disagreed with your post due to blind encouragement, but I also disagree because it promotes a “1 side is correct in all situations” approach.
The reality is that many people have personal issues they want to consider but don’t mention those when asking questions. If both sides explain themselves well enough, the poster will be able to make a better decision based on his or her personal situation at the time. The pro side or con side may not have known about that personal issue, but just because he or she was thorough in presenting his or her side the original poster can make a better decision.
The good comes with the bad. It is not really about people discouraging others.
Honestly, both sides of any question should be presented and considered.
Part #5: Finally
Sorry, but frankly when I was younger there was never any question about my future in the games industry.
I may sound cold-hearted and get downvoted, but the simple fact is that I would have shrugged off anyone who said I was unfit for the industry.
The people who have it have it. Those who don’t don’t.
It my sound arrogant to say that it was never a questionable matter to me—I was going to be in the industry and that was final—but if my story is similar to anyone else’s, those people don’t really care about any discouraging words people may give.
The target audience for this message is slim.
Most people who belong in the industry don’t get discouraged. If they really belong, they come off as such and get treated as such.
The few who get misunderstood and then “bullied”, well, if they really belong then it doesn’t matter to them that some person online said otherwise.
They just know.
I know you want to combat trolls, but your message is an open letter. It is not as if someone is going to read your words of encouragement and then say, “Wait, was I previously discouraged by a troll? No? Okay disregard all those encouraging words I just read; those were just for people who had previously been trolled”.
Some people—and especially chefs in my experience—do not belong in the industry. It is a simple fact that discouragement can be healthy and can be the correct course of action.
Just as in art, encouragement and practice do not in fact a pro make. You aren’t going to draw photorealistically no matter how hard you practice, and practice also can’t make you an expert game designer or programmer. Some people are made for certain things and they need to just stay within those domains. Discouragement really is necessary sometimes.
L. Spiro
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement
